# American flag = military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840 "2018-01-30T22:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/41 "2018-01-31T17:02:42Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > Seriously? How hamfisted does it need to be to satisfy your level of machismo? Trump (and others) have destroyed one football player’s career. Doesn’t seem too “limp-wristed” to me. Trump does not control the NFL or its teams. The NFL teams are quite capable of figuring out the effect of hiring Kapernik on ticket and merchandise sales. The first amendment only applies to the government so it is not applicable to the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/42 "2018-01-31T17:04:17Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Yeah, it’s mostly this. The “freeedooom” thing is usually incidental. > > I actually went to boot camp with a guy who was there because his fiancees dad was going to buy him a Harley when he graduated. Before this whole side derails, I should have quoted the post I was responding to, while it isn’t all the reasons they join they didn’t sign up to protect a piece of cloth. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/43 "2018-01-31T19:52:31Z")
I read somewhere that Trump tried to buy a NFL team and the other owners laughed him out of the room. He did own a team in the short lived USFL that went bust after only a few years in the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/44 "2018-01-31T22:47:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Nate Boyer, the Green Beret in question, naturally received death threats for his suggestion, presumably from some of those people who are so concerned about members of the military being disrespected. Obviously, they were threatening to kill him respectfully - not one of those disrespectful kills. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/45 "2018-01-31T22:54:57Z")
> [@Batano](#): > > The last people to legitimatly risk their lives to protect freedom were the civil rights marchers in the 60s. I don’t think the Vietnamese, Iraqis, or Afghanis cared much about removing American’'s freedoms Don’t you think the guys fighting ISIS are risking their lives to protect freedom? Admittedly, ISIS isn’t oppressing many Americans currently, but I’d certainly give most of the soldiers (and only a small fraction of them are Americans) fighting against ISIS credit for “risk[ing] their lives to protect freedom”. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/46 "2018-01-31T23:44:19Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > When NFL anthem protests started I would hear stuff like “they are dishonoring our troops” and “our troops died for that flag” > > Is that the only meaning of the flag? Seems like it stands for the country, not just the military. Anyone disagree? “Dishonoring our troops”: **No not at all**. Everyone that volunteers in theory was defending the rights of those protesters to protest. “Troops died for that flag”: **Well yes actually** , at least in concept. But kneeling for the anthem is not dishonoring to those soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/47 "2018-01-31T23:47:13Z")
> [@Batano](#): > > The last people to legitimatly risk their lives to protect freedom were the civil rights marchers in the 60s. I don’t think the Vietnamese, Iraqis, or Afghanis cared much about removing American’'s freedoms You’re kind of wrong on the Vietnam War if not the Vietnamese people. The Communists really did want to take away our freedom and we fought for right or wrong in Vietnam to slow the spread of the commies. It was a terribly stupid and brutal war (duh) but there were troops fighting the spread of communism to defend our freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/48 "2018-01-31T23:56:38Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Trump does not control the NFL or its teams. The NFL teams are quite capable of figuring out the effect of hiring Kapernik on ticket and merchandise sales. The first amendment only applies to the government so it is not applicable to the circumstances. Baloney. Trump doesn’t control the NFL or teams, but he does (barely) control his mouth and Twitter feed. If he had said something along the lines of “I disagree with Mr. Kaepernick, but I respect his right to protest. I especially appreciate how, by kneeling, he chose a gesture that brought attention to his cause while still assuming a genuinely respectful posture.” Perhaps if he had said something along those lines, the NFL owners might not find Kaepernick so toxic. Instead, Trump called him a sonofabitch. How presidential. I agree that the freedom of speech guaranteed by the First Amendment does not extend to freedom from consequences of that speech. I am sure that Mr. Kaepernick understands that, too. But Trump’s actions in regard to this matter are utterly beyond the pale. Do you not see that having the President of the United States attempt to quash a citizen’s expression by making him toxic to his chosen profession is unacceptable in a free society? Trump is free to criticize the man, just as I am. But he went well beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/49 "2018-02-01T01:14:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Don’t you think the guys fighting ISIS are risking their lives to protect freedom? Admittedly, ISIS isn’t oppressing many Americans currently, but I’d certainly give most of the soldiers (and only a small fraction of them are Americans) fighting against ISIS credit for “risk[ing] their lives to protect freedom”. ISIS is certainly attempting an assault on our security, including the lives of Americans here in this country, to say nothing of the huge numbers of people in the Middle East who had to live under their thumb for several years. I wouldn’t really say ISIS is threatening the civil liberties of Americans, like whether we can speak freely, vote, own guns, have abortions, and so on. That’s something that Americans really do to themselves. Aside from our physical security, which is a given, what American freedom do you believe that ISIS is threatening? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/50 "2018-02-01T01:45:49Z")
I’ve never considered the flag by itself to be a symbol for the military. It’s only when it’s accompanied by other symbols or some other context that indicates such (such as a color guard bringing in the flag). And, even then, I see it as a symbol for the military in the sense that it shows the country they are fighting for. If it were a symbol for the military exclusively, then any mail you got that had the flag would be from the military or about it. But it’s not. So it’s clear to me that it is not exclusively a military symbol. Hence further context is needed. And, of course, the people kneeling have stated repeatedly that they do not disrespect our military, so the context shows that either they are showing respect to the military by kneeling, or they simply are not using the flag to symbolize the military at all. That said, it is a protest, so if it makes you angry, that’s okay. Their cause is just. Work to fix the problem, and the protests stop. You cannot stop it by force, any more than you can crush the flag by force. The flag was still there. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/51 "2018-02-01T03:32:43Z")
Anyone who joined the military during the Cold War, at a time when the country did in fact face an existential threat from a major nuclear power (Russia) that was prepared for total war, put their lives on the line and performed a useful service as far as I’m concerned. It doesn’t matter where the military decided to put them, they volunteered to submit their minds and bodies to the orders of the government under whatever circumstances might have arisen, however dire. That means something to me, even if others disagree. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/52 "2018-02-01T03:49:26Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Anyone who joined the military during the Cold War, at a time when the country did in fact face an existential threat from a major nuclear power (Russia) that was prepared for total war, put their lives on the line and performed a useful service as far as I’m concerned. It doesn’t matter where the military decided to put them, they volunteered to submit their minds and bodies to the orders of the government under whatever circumstances might have arisen, however dire. That means something to me, even if others disagree. This may be so, but it’s nevertheless drawing a very long bow to move from that to a suggestion that anyone who protests against some unrelated aspect of US public affairs is thereby “disrespecting the military”. The military do not put their lives on the line to defend a strip of acrylic; they do so to defend freedoms, including freedom of speech, the freedom to protest and the freedom to call government to account. If anybody could reasonably be said to be “disrespecting the military” in this episode (which, frankly, I doubt) it wouldn’t be those who kneel before the flag; it would be those who abuse and victimise them for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/53 "2018-02-01T05:28:33Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > This may be so, but it’s nevertheless drawing a very long bow to move from that to a suggestion that anyone who protests against some unrelated aspect of US public affairs is thereby “disrespecting the military”. On that, you’ll get no argument from me. The right wing has co-opted the idea of military service and the flag, conflating them into its own view of patriotism that it uses as a form of virtue signalling. Yes, the right is guilty of virtue-signalling as much as the left is, and the military is one of their totems that they use to do it. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/54 "2018-02-01T05:38:41Z")
I’m not sure how people who narrow the symbolism of the flag to the military alone square that with the Pledge of Allegiance, which says quite clearly that the flag stands for “the Republic.” Besides, if someone REALLY respects the military, he’d push for increased funding for VA hospitals to improve quality of treatment and shorten wait times. She’d donate to organizations that reduce the appallingly high rate of suicides among vets. They’d volunteer for programs that help returning vets adjust to disabilities. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/55 "2018-02-01T06:10:44Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I’m not sure how people who narrow the symbolism of the flag to the military alone square that with the Pledge of Allegiance, which says quite clearly that the flag stands for “the Republic.” > > Besides, if someone REALLY respects the military, he’d push for increased funding for VA hospitals to improve quality of treatment and shorten wait times. She’d donate to organizations that reduce the appallingly high rate of suicides among vets. They’d volunteer for programs that help returning vets adjust to disabilities. The ironic part is that the pledge which has also been used as a form of compelled act of patriotism was written by a a Christian socialist…Francis Bellamy > [@](#): > > ‘the rights of working people and the equal distribution of economic resources, which he believed was inherent in the teachings of Jesus.’ Of course he was also a xenophobic racist, so maybe that is why the nationalists of the era liked it. > [@](#): > > “Where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another every alien immigrant of inferior race may bring corruption to the stock. There are races more or less akin to our own whom we may admit freely and get nothing but advantage by the infusion of their wholesome blood. But there are other races, which we cannot assimilate without lowering our racial standard, which we should be as sacred to us as the sanctity of our homes.” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/56 "2018-02-01T06:28:17Z")
Mixed in with the reality that the Star-Spangled Banner attacks black people who had the audacity to fight for their freedom, I wish we could just start over. > [@](#): > > No refuge could save the hireling and slave > From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave… Personally it is really really hard to hold these eugenics era additions as _American_ when they have such an un-American origin and rise to officialdom. Maybe we could remind Trump of this line from “Hail Columbia!” > [@](#): > > Sound, sound the trump of fame ---
**Author:** ![Batano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Batano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batano)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/57 "2018-02-01T13:29:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Don’t you think the guys fighting ISIS are risking their lives to protect freedom? Admittedly, ISIS isn’t oppressing many Americans currently, but I’d certainly give most of the soldiers (and only a small fraction of them are Americans) fighting against ISIS credit for “risk[ing] their lives to protect freedom”. No, I don’t. Certainly not American freedom, which is what the flag wavers claim. ISIS wants to kill Americans because we keep intervening in the ME. I don’t think they care if we are free to speak our mind within our own borders. The people protecting our freedoms are the ACLU, their conservative counterparts who provide a dissenting viewpoint, the courts, and the press. I’m not saying the military is bad, just that their function is not protecting freedom any more than a firefighter’s jobs is. An exception was when Eisenhower sent the 101st Airborne into Little Rock. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/58 "2018-02-01T13:51:31Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > When NFL anthem protests started I would hear stuff like “they are dishonoring our troops” and “our troops died for that flag” > > Is that the only meaning of the flag? Seems like it stands for the country, not just the military. Anyone disagree? There is a connection but I agree, its not the same thing. The NFL protesters are weenies but the constitution protects their right to be weenies. It doesn’t protect them from criticism. It doesn’t protect them from ridicule. It doesn’t protect their right to continue playing for the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/59 "2018-02-01T13:56:07Z")
there is no right to play in the NFL but it is illegal for the owners to collude to keep anyone out of the league. Collusion like that is very hard to prove but I believe Kaepernick is looking into a lawsuit. MLB owners lost a case over their collusion to keep pay down for free agents. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/60 "2018-02-01T14:08:35Z")
The more broad question is to the effect that how come any form of gesture towards patriotic displays other that “the right one” should be seen as an affront to “the troops”. That way lies the risk of demanding reverence to the State. And if we really want to turn such public displays into “tests” of who is Patriotically Correct. (At least Jehovah’s Witnesses have the cover of religious objection to not say the Pledge.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840.md?page=4)