# American flag = military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840 "2018-01-30T22:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/61 "2018-02-01T18:58:57Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > (At least Jehovah’s Witnesses have the cover of religious objection to not say the Pledge.) They don’t, but part of the reason is that they don’t support the military. They consider the idea at odd with the commands of Jesus to turn the other cheek and not live by the sword. That said, the other reason is that they see it as a form of worship of someone other than God. And, honestly, given the responses we’re getting, I find I can’t disagree. It sure seems to be a religious devotion. Oh, and BTW. There is no right to work in the NFL, but they do have a lot of black participants and black fans. That’s kinda the point of a protest, to make sure you have supporters to keep you from facing consequences. If they are just not hiring Kaepernick for his talents, then they should welcome a suit to prove that it’s not about his choice to kneel. Because, if it is, then the NFL will have hell to pay. There’s a reason they told those vets that they couldn’t include #pleasestand in their ads. They know how it would go for them if they were seen as siding against the players. Edit: and, of course, I agree with the rest of what you said, and is actually exactly what I find scary. That is the religious devotion aspect. We are a free nation. Why in the world are there rules about how we have to revere its symbols? That’s what they do in repressive regimes. People should stand and pledge and everything else because they admire the United States so much that they WANT to do it, not because some dogma tells them they have to. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/62 "2018-02-01T19:49:01Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I’m not sure how people who narrow the symbolism of the flag to the military alone square that with the Pledge of Allegiance, which says quite clearly that the flag stands for “the Republic.” > > Besides, if someone REALLY respects the military, he’d push for increased funding for VA hospitals to improve quality of treatment and shorten wait times. She’d donate to organizations that reduce the appallingly high rate of suicides among vets. They’d volunteer for programs that help returning vets adjust to disabilities. Or just advocate for a non-interventionist foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/63 "2018-02-01T22:20:30Z")
It always tickles me when people scream about desecrating the American Flag … when the flag itself symbolizes our right to desecrate the flag as a form of political speech … I think that’s funny … I joined the military right after the 1980 Presidential elections … I figured I was going to get drafted anyway and I didn’t want to have to wear a radiation suit marching across The Ukraine … so I joined the Air Force hoping for a desk job on a lower floor at Cheyenne Mountain Complex … very cowardly of me, hiding with all the NSA operatives … except there’s No Such Agency … but if there was, well, nevermind … ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/64 "2018-02-01T22:38:21Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > While it is anecdotal, every veteran I know who I have asked about their reasons for joining cited protecting freedoms as their primary cause. . Really? Are any of them Iraq war veterans? If so, could you ask them to explain how the war protected freedoms. I’ve always wanted to know. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/65 "2018-02-01T23:33:37Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I joined the military right after the 1980 Presidential elections … I figured I was going to get drafted anyway and I didn’t want to have to wear a radiation suit marching across The Ukraine … so I joined the Air Force hoping for a desk job on a lower floor at Cheyenne Mountain Complex … very cowardly of me, hiding with all the NSA operatives … except there’s No Such Agency … but if there was, well, nevermind … Was there really that much fear about Reagan bringing back the draft? I’m not doubting you, I’ve just never heard that before and it was before my time. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/66 "2018-02-01T23:36:32Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Was there really that much fear about Reagan bringing back the draft? I’m not doubting you, I’ve just never heard that before and it was before my time. There was some fear of it but I think it was mostly just fear and not anything substantial. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/67 "2018-02-02T00:48:02Z")
The Carter Administration was who brought back Selective Service … and Reagan wasn’t pulling punches during the campaign … he was promising to do to them damn Soviets what he done did to them filthy hippies … Afghanistan, Central America, Angola, Korea, Berkeley … any of these could have escalated into nuclear conflict … With thousands of ICBM’s pointed at the USA, it took balls to call them the “Evil Empire” … the Soviets, not the Californians … ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/68 "2018-02-02T01:27:31Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > The flag = the country, not specifically the military. But the military is made up of people who believe that the country is worth risking and sacrificing one’s life for, and dishonoring the country (by way of dishonoring the flag) is an insult to that belief. So is the [state department](https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/05/us/us-diplomats-attacked/index.html), which the [current CIC](http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/341923-trumps-war-on-the-state-department) seems to view as lower than worms. But I guess promoting peace and American values through dialogue isn’t nearly as patriotic as blowing things up. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/69 "2018-02-02T01:58:17Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Really? > > Are any of them Iraq war veterans? If so, could you ask them to explain how the war protected freedoms. I’ve always wanted to know. Of the people I talked to who were Iraq war veterans served in that war because of stop-loss restrictions so I have no data for you. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/70 "2018-02-02T02:10:33Z")
A flag is traditionally military in nature. That is where they originate. Their definitions are couched in the language of heraldry, which is part and parcel of martial enterprise. The flag is the unifying symbol of the armed forces, the banner under which they fight, as opposed to the other guys, who fight under that other banner (or banners). The military is the ultimate countenance of a nation, that other nations face when diplomacy fails. Really, honoring the flag is _ipso facto_ showing support for the military solution. If you feel that there is a tendency to engage arms ahead of failing to exhaust all avenues of negotiation, or that the military are sometimes used to intimidate weaker nations on behalf of big business perhaps saluting the flag or reciting the pledge is not what you ought to be doing. If you do not feel that way, salute away. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/71 "2018-02-05T00:38:45Z")
guess which president said this today: “Though many of our nation’s service members are unable to be home with family and friends to enjoy this evening’s American tradition, they are always in our thoughts and prayers,” Trump’s statement read. “We owe these heroes the greatest respect for defending our liberty and our American way of life. Their sacrifice is stitched into each star and every stripe of our Star-Spangled Banner. We hold them in our hearts and thank them for our freedom as we proudly stand for the national anthem.” ---
**Author:** ![Haldurson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/51bf81/32.png) [@Haldurson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haldurson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/72 "2018-02-05T01:12:21Z")
Flags may have a military origin, but the meaning today is PRECISELY the nation, state, or group that the flag is supposed to represent. We have flags of all nations flying at the UN, flying over Avenue of the Americas in Manhattan, they are over embassies. They are at public schools, and of course, in stadiums. They are displayed at the Olympic games. If you think that every time I see a swedish flag, I’m supposed to think of the swedish army, and not the nation of Sweden, there’s no arguing with you. When we say the pledge, there is no mention of soldiers or the military, nor should there be in a democratic republic. Here’s an interesting article about the history of the use of our national anthem in protest (long story short: it’s nothing new): [https://www.snopes.com/2017/10/01/anthem-channel-protests-since-songs-origins/](https://www.snopes.com/2017/10/01/anthem-channel-protests-since-songs-origins/) BTW, I see no intended disrespect for the troops, for the flag, or for the anthem by those protesting. There are those who have deliberately tried to change the conversation for their political goals, and this has completely confused the issue. It’s despicable. To my mind, there is no argument against the black lives matter movement that does not include either racism or a denial of reality at its core. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/73 "2018-02-05T16:09:02Z")
> [@Haldurson](#): > > Flags may have a military origin, but the meaning today is PRECISELY the nation, state, or group that the flag is supposed to represent. We have flags of all nations flying at the UN, flying over Avenue of the Americas in Manhattan, they are over embassies. They are at public schools, and of course, in stadiums. They are displayed at the Olympic games. If you think that every time I see a swedish flag, I’m supposed to think of the swedish army, and not the nation of Sweden, there’s no arguing with you. When we say the pledge, there is no mention of soldiers or the military, nor should there be in a democratic republic. > > Here’s an interesting article about the history of the use of our national anthem in protest (long story short: it’s nothing new): [https://www.snopes.com/2017/10/01/anthem-channel-protests-since-songs-origins/](https://www.snopes.com/2017/10/01/anthem-channel-protests-since-songs-origins/) > > BTW, I see no intended disrespect for the troops, for the flag, or for the anthem by those protesting. There are those who have deliberately tried to change the conversation for their political goals, and this has completely confused the issue. It’s despicable. To my mind, there is no argument against the black lives matter movement that does not include either racism or a denial of reality at its core. How can you say that the flag stands for the nation but that not standing for the flag does not show disrespect to the nation? The reason people stand is to show the nation respect, by not standing they are showing their opinion that the nation does not deserve respect. Kapernik has said that his reason for starting the protest was that he did not think the nation deserved respect. "“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color” How much more explicit can it get? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/74 "2018-02-05T18:10:46Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How can you say that the flag stands for the nation but that not standing for the flag does not show disrespect to the nation? The reason people stand is to show the nation respect, by not standing they are showing their opinion that the nation does not deserve respect. Kapernik has said that his reason for starting the protest was that he did not think the nation deserved respect. "“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color” How much more explicit can it get? Because what our nation stands for is not an idol or a king, we are citizens and not subjects. We are a country founded in revolution driven by a kings failure to address grievance and protest. Why should we blindly submit and worship to a golden calf when that same golden calf does not represent our beliefs and values? While should people sacrifice their right to protest and to address for grievances in order to protect what is empty idolatry? Why is it not more disrespectful to ignore our history and our stated common values and goals in order to appease those who wish us to prostrate ourselves in front of idolatry? Is it respect to ignore the ideals of our founding fathers, and to once again submit to the whims of kings and masters who fail to honor their citizens? I find compelled acts of empty patriotism to be one of the most disrespectful concepts of all. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/75 "2018-02-05T19:22:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How can you say that the flag stands for the nation but that not standing for the flag does not show disrespect to the nation? The reason people stand is to show the nation respect, by not standing they are showing their opinion that the nation does not deserve respect. Kapernik has said that his reason for starting the protest was that he did not think the nation deserved respect. "“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color” How much more explicit can it get? Apparently you feel strongly that people should follow the etiquette by standing for the national anthem. But how strictly should people adhere to that etiquette? I saw the Superbowl yesterday and after the conclusion of the national anthem, many people in the stands were cheering or applauding. I was taught that’s inappropriate, since the national anthem isn’t being performed as an entertainment. The analogy given is, if you attend church, do you applaud after a hymn is performed? The answer is, generally, no because like the anthem, it’s not a performance for entertainment. And in another thread, someone talks about people who fly the flag from pickup beds. And that’s wrong, too, based on my reading of the flag code or flag etiquette. The American flag is supposed to be flown on a vehicle from the right front fender. (Which is where you’d see it on a presidential limo, for instance.) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/76 "2018-02-05T19:45:20Z")
But not so strongly as to ask that the rules of etiquette be followed. This is the double standard, where groups tend to pick and choose what they find as disrespectful. The entire anthem process at football games is counter to the flag code, but as they aren’t uppity protesters it seems to not matter. “The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.” [http://www.giantflagrental.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/portfolio\_superbowl1-1280x420.jpg](http://www.giantflagrental.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/portfolio_superbowl1-1280x420.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/77 "2018-02-05T20:19:38Z")
most FB games do not have a flat flag. Most times the flag is just on a flag pole. That flat display only shows up at games like the Super Bowl or other "big " games. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/78 "2018-02-05T20:34:46Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > most FB games do not have a flat flag. Most times the flag is just on a flag pole. That flat display only shows up at games like the Super Bowl or other "big " games. Funny, I have never attended a game at Centrylink Field where they didn’t use one…yet I often see people with flags on their shirts, or college teams that use parts of the flag on their uniforms, yet there is no outrage at those forms of disrespect, which seems universally reserved for _uppity_ minorities who are respectfully protesting for what are very valid and real causes. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/79 "2018-02-05T21:27:50Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Apparently you feel strongly that people should follow the etiquette by standing for the national anthem. But how strictly should people adhere to that etiquette? I saw the Superbowl yesterday and after the conclusion of the national anthem, many people in the stands were cheering or applauding. I was taught that’s inappropriate, since the national anthem isn’t being performed as an entertainment. The analogy given is, if you attend church, do you applaud after a hymn is performed? The answer is, generally, no because like the anthem, it’s not a performance for entertainment. > > And in another thread, someone talks about people who fly the flag from pickup beds. And that’s wrong, too, based on my reading of the flag code or flag etiquette. The American flag is supposed to be flown on a vehicle from the right front fender. (Which is where you’d see it on a presidential limo, for instance.) I don’t care about the finer points of etiquette. The people who are applauding are showing appreciation for our country, our anthem, and the wonderful artist who sang the song. It is the motivation and what they are saying that matters. The people who refuse to stand for the anthem and flag are not doing so because they are mistaken about flag etiquette. They are doing so because it is widely known way to show that you do not respect the flag and the country that it stands for. That is also their stated purpose behind the protest. Anyone who compares minor violations of arcane rules surrounding the flag to willful and deliberate disrespect is fundamentally dishonest. They have a right to not stand if they feel the country is not worth respecting but lets not pretend that is not what they are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/80 "2018-02-05T22:38:26Z")
well in terms of the anthem NC State fans (where I went to school ) have their own version of it for games. For the line the “rockets red glare”, they yell extra loud for “red”, being the school color. And they change the last line to “home of the Wolfpack” the school mascot. There are fans who are upset about these changes. But other fans have no problem with it. I have a feeling some of the fans who are OK with these changes have a problem with the kneeling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840.md?page=5)