# American flag = military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840 "2018-01-30T22:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/81 "2018-02-06T00:43:47Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I don’t care about the finer points of etiquette. The people who are applauding are showing appreciation for our country, our anthem, and the wonderful artist who sang the song. It is the motivation and what they are saying that matters. > The people who refuse to stand for the anthem and flag are not doing so because they are mistaken about flag etiquette. They are doing so because it is widely known way to show that you do not respect the flag and the country that it stands for. That is also their stated purpose behind the protest. > Anyone who compares minor violations of arcane rules surrounding the flag to willful and deliberate disrespect is fundamentally dishonest. > They have a right to not stand if they feel the country is not worth respecting but lets not pretend that is not what they are saying. Can you understand that a person of color may not share this enthusiasm, as the verse the one they stop at is wishing for death and damnation for both freemen and escaped slaves that were on the other side? The song on a large part is a celebration of slavery. Why should they bite their lip and ignoring people who are upset about a small protest pointing out that this is still an issue today? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/82 "2018-02-06T00:47:26Z")
Cite: “Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/83 "2018-02-06T02:26:56Z")
When was the last time you heard the second stanza sung? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/84 "2018-02-06T02:54:58Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > When was the last time you heard the second stanza sung? What’s your point? That like institutional racism, facts should be ignored and are OK if we don’t have to admit the ugly truth? You do realize that mr Key tried to gag abolitionists, stating that the rights of slave holders overruled the 1st amendment? > **[Snow-Storm in August](https://books.google.com/books?id=xVRQ8NsrP5MC&pg=PA220&lpg=PA220&dq=%E2%80%9Cassociate%2Band%2Bamalgamate%2Bwith%2Bthe%2Bnegro.%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=akAa-MlLqz&sig=k_EwmdCWhjvNJqXsBAd9NicrwMY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjirYnHldDNAhVMxoMKHQDlDDoQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Cassociate%20and%20amalgamate%20with%20the%20negro.%E2%80%9D&f=false)** > > In 1835, the city of Washington simmered with racial tension as newly freed African Americans from the South poured in, outnumbering slaves for the first time. Among the enslaved was nineteen-year-old Arthur Bowen, who stumbled home drunkenly one... ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/85 "2018-02-06T07:05:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What’s your point? That like institutional racism, facts should be ignored and are OK if we don’t have to admit the ugly truth? > You do realize that mr Key tried to gag abolitionists, stating that the rights of slave holders overruled the 1st amendment? > > [Snow-Storm in August: The Struggle for American Freedom and Washington's ... - Jefferson Morley - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=xVRQ8NsrP5MC&pg=PA220&lpg=PA220&dq=%E2%80%9Cassociate+and+amalgamate+with+the+negro.%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=akAa-MlLqz&sig=k_EwmdCWhjvNJqXsBAd9NicrwMY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjirYnHldDNAhVMxoMKHQDlDDoQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Cassociate%20and%20amalgamate%20with%20the%20negro.%E2%80%9D&f=false) I personally do not give a shit about Key or the national anthem. FFS, it is so difficult to sing because it started out as a drinking song. Had I my way, it would be changed to _America the Beautiful_ and we can all ignore the “god” part. We do with the pledge and the quarter as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/86 "2018-02-06T15:29:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I don’t care about the finer points of etiquette. The people who are applauding are showing appreciation for our country, our anthem, and the wonderful artist who sang the song. It is the motivation and what they are saying that matters. > The people who refuse to stand for the anthem and flag are not doing so because they are mistaken about flag etiquette. They are doing so because it is widely known way to show that you do not respect the flag and the country that it stands for. That is also their stated purpose behind the protest. > Anyone who compares minor violations of arcane rules surrounding the flag to willful and deliberate disrespect is fundamentally dishonest. > They have a right to not stand if they feel the country is not worth respecting but lets not pretend that is not what they are saying. I respect the country and all that for which it stands but I don’t appreciate the flag and anthem being forced upon me at every sports event. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/87 "2018-02-06T17:58:25Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Can you understand that a person of color may not share this enthusiasm, as the verse the one they stop at is wishing for death and damnation for both freemen and escaped slaves that were on the other side? > > The song on a large part is a celebration of slavery. > > Why should they bite their lip and ignoring people who are upset about a small protest pointing out that this is still an issue today? From the context of the song it is pretty obvious that hireling and slave refer to the mercenaries and impressed sailors that were fighting for the British. Even if you take slaves to mean the ex-slaves fighting for the British, that is two lines out of 32. That is not a large part being a celebration of slavery. None of this is germane however since the stated purpose of the protest is not a dislike of the song’s lyrics but a desire to show their belief that the country is not worthy of respect. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/88 "2018-02-06T18:10:33Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > From the context of the song it is pretty obvious that hireling and slave refer to the mercenaries and impressed sailors that were fighting for the British. Even if you take slaves to mean the ex-slaves fighting for the British, that is two lines out of 32. That is not a large part being a celebration of slavery. > > None of this is germane however since the stated purpose of the protest is not a dislike of the song’s lyrics but a desire to show their belief that the country is not worthy of respect. Um, your second sentence is completely unfounded…especially on a week where we are hearing testimony about police officers carrying around BB guns to plant on people they accidentally shoot. Trying to improve our country, or to better live up to the ideals of the founders IS respect. Or is it the failure to respect institutionalized racism the problem here? Because that should not be respected. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/89 "2018-02-06T18:54:43Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Um, your second sentence is completely unfounded…especially on a week where we are hearing testimony about police officers carrying around BB guns to plant on people they accidentally shoot. …do what now… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/90 "2018-02-06T19:12:49Z")
The intent of those kneeling for the anthem can be gleaned from asking them. It’s really that simple. The vast majority say they’re not intending to disrespect anyone or anything, they’re intending to call attention to an injustice. That’s the stated intent – there’s no mystery here. I suppose they could all by filthy liars who just want to disrespect America, but that seems a lot less likely than they’re actually doing it for the reasons they state. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/91 "2018-02-06T20:01:55Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Um, your second sentence is completely unfounded…especially on a week where we are hearing testimony about police officers carrying around BB guns to plant on people they accidentally shoot. > Trying to improve our country, or to better live up to the ideals of the founders IS respect. > > Or is it the failure to respect institutionalized racism the problem here? Because that should not be respected. The anthem and the flag are not symbols of the Baltimore Police Department or Baltimore in general. They are not symbols of institutionalized racism or some other phantasm. They are symbols of the country as a whole and the reason they are not being shown respect is that the players do not believe the country is worthy of respect. Kapernik explicitly said “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.” He was not protesting a corrupt police department but a country. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/92 "2018-02-06T20:11:44Z")
I think he, and all the other players who take a knee, are doing it because it’s a conspicuous opportunity to make a powerful statement. They are not interrupting the game to protest; they are not yelling out to the cameras; they’re taking advantage of one moment when everyone’s eyes are on them to make a statement. I do not believe they are being disrespectful to the flag or the country in any way. On the contrary, they are advocating ideals that the flag stands for. And they aren’t turning their back on the flag; they aren’t spitting on the flag or burning the flag; I think that the knee is a totally dignified and respectful way to make their statement. Anyone who really believes that their ultimate intention is to disrespect the flag is totally missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/93 "2018-02-06T20:22:49Z")
> **[U.S. national anthem kneeling protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._national_anthem_protests_(2016%E2%80%93present))** > > Beginning in August 2016, some American athletes have protested against a variety of perceived injustices in the United States by kneeling on one knee while the U.S. national anthem is played. Beginning in 2017, many players also protested against President Donald Trump's criticisms of those involved in the protest, and some against Trump's policies during his time in office. Some observers have described the protests as being politically motivated and/or patriotic and they have al The protests... Seattle Seahawks players on why they took part in the protests: “We will not stand for the injustice that has plagued people of color in this country. Out of love for our country and in honor of the sacrifices made on our behalf, we unite to oppose those that would deny our most basic freedoms.” Stevie Wonder, before taking a knee: “Tonight, I’m taking a knee for America” Eric Reid, teammate of Kapaernick, on why they chose to kneel: “After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former NFL player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, … during the anthem as a peaceful protest,” said Reid. “We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.” They specifically say that it is out of respect that they kneel, not disrespect. That is their intent. This isn’t a big mystery – we only have to read and hear what they said when they were asked. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/94 "2018-02-06T20:42:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They specifically say that it is out of respect that they kneel, not disrespect. That is their intent. This isn’t a big mystery – we only have to read and hear what they said when they were asked. Jesus Christ could come down and personally take a knee with them, and these people would be calling Jesus an asshole. They’re never going to be convinced, and we know why. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/95 "2018-02-06T21:06:20Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The anthem and the flag are not symbols of the Baltimore Police Department or Baltimore in general. They are not symbols of institutionalized racism or some other phantasm. They are symbols of the country as a whole and the reason they are not being shown respect is that the players do not believe the country is worthy of respect. Kapernik explicitly said “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.” He was not protesting a corrupt police department but a country. You may want to look more into the history of the Flag, pledge and anthem. The United States didn’t even have an official Anthem until 1931, and other songs tended to be used before “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adopted like “Hail, Columbia”, “My Country, 'Tis of Thee” and “America the Beautiful”. The rise of flag worship, the pledge and our current national anthem were directly related to the Nationalism and anti-Catholic/Eastern European sentiment either due to immigration or an anti-communist/labor movement.While you may not directly associate them with those subject today it is not mythology. The founding fathers like George Washington warned us to “Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.” What can be more “pretended patriotism” than to ignore the injustices of our fellow citizens in order to protect the delicate sensibilities of an audience at a sporting event. “For true patriots to be silent, is dangerous.”—Samuel Adams While you have a right to your own opinion, I will always disagree with your position, and from my view point reducing our countries grand ideals to idle worship and compelled acts of allegiance is a far greater disrespect. Convince me of your idea, as I currently view it as far more disrespectful to our country. Patriotism that is forced is a false patriotism just as loyalty that is coerced is the very antithesis of loyalty. We are not a country of kings or lords, we are a country bound by ideals and values. By what founding principle do you justify the requirements that citizens must abandon their values and/or ignore the injustices committed against their their fellow American’s in order to show respect? Outside of a dismissal as being disrespectful you have shared no reason for us to abandon our convictions to help our fellow citizen as a requirement to show respect. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/96 "2018-02-07T18:39:44Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The founding fathers like George Washington warned us to “Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.” > > What can be more “pretended patriotism” than to ignore the injustices of our fellow citizens in order to protect the delicate sensibilities of an audience at a sporting event. > > “For true patriots to be silent, is dangerous.”—Samuel Adams > > While you have a right to your own opinion, I will always disagree with your position, and from my view point reducing our countries grand ideals to idle worship and compelled acts of allegiance is a far greater disrespect. > > Convince me of your idea, as I currently view it as far more disrespectful to our country. > > Patriotism that is forced is a false patriotism just as loyalty that is coerced is the very antithesis of loyalty. We are not a country of kings or lords, we are a country bound by ideals and values. By what founding principle do you justify the requirements that citizens must abandon their values and/or ignore the injustices committed against their their fellow American’s in order to show respect? > > Outside of a dismissal as being disrespectful you have shared no reason for us to abandon our convictions to help our fellow citizen as a requirement to show respect. No one is being compelled to be patriotic. Those who choose not to stand are not being arrested, merely criticized. Why are unpatriotic football players above criticism? No one is being asked to abandon any values or ignore any injustices. If their values make them think that our country is not worthy of respect than they are free to express that by refusing to stand for the anthem, just as those of us who believe the country is worthy of respect are free to stand without compulsion. However, it is insulting to our intelligence to pretend that protesting the anthem is anything other than what it obviously is, a premeditated sign of disrespect to our country. They have plenty of places and times to protest anything they want but choose to do it during the two minutes a week when the national anthem plays. That is not a coincidence. They wanted controversy to attract attention and they got it. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/97 "2018-02-07T18:56:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > No one is being compelled to be patriotic. Those who choose not to stand are not being arrested, merely criticized. Why are unpatriotic football players above criticism? No one is being asked to abandon any values or ignore any injustices. If their values make them think that our country is not worthy of respect than they are free to express that by refusing to stand for the anthem, just as those of us who believe the country is worthy of respect are free to stand without compulsion. > However, it is insulting to our intelligence to pretend that protesting the anthem is anything other than what it obviously is, a premeditated sign of disrespect to our country. They have plenty of places and times to protest anything they want but choose to do it during the two minutes a week when the national anthem plays. That is not a coincidence. They wanted controversy to attract attention and they got it. You argument is distill very real social problems that effect the very lives to offence… I am not insulting your intelligence, I am plainly stating that your argument favors sporting events at the expense of our core foundational principles. You demand respect for idles while refusing to respect what that imagry claims to represent. You ask that they continue to allow their fellow countrymen to suffer because the truth is uncomfortable. Without people who are willing to stand up for others our military would be serving Kings, which is not respect for our military. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/98 "2018-02-07T19:03:25Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > However, it is insulting to our intelligence to pretend that protesting the anthem is anything other than what it obviously is, a premeditated sign of disrespect to our country. I get that you disagree with their protests, but why must they also be liars? They’re openly stating the reasons for their protests, and they say it’s not about disrespect for the country. I’m a military veteran and I don’t believe it’s about disrespect. Am I a liar? Must they also be liars? Why can’t we just disagree without the other side being dishonest? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/99 "2018-02-07T19:46:38Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > our core foundational principles A “core foundational principle” forced on the unwilling isn’t worth holding. The phrase “loyal opposition” is not an oxymoron. An act of protest is often the truest form of patriotism available. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840/100 "2018-02-07T19:56:45Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > No one is being compelled to be patriotic. Those who choose not to stand are not being arrested, merely criticized. And you’re criticizing in an attempt to compel them to comport themselves in a way that _you_ find acceptably “patriotic.” > [@](#): > > Why are unpatriotic football players above criticism? They are neither “above criticism” nor unpatriotic. > [@](#): > > No one is being asked to abandon any values or ignore any injustices. No, they’re being asked to march in lockstep with your view of patriotism. AFAIC, that is being asked to abandon fundamental American values, but I get that you disagree. > [@](#): > > If their values make them think that our country is not worthy of respect than they are free to express that by refusing to stand for the anthem, just as those of us who believe the country is worthy of respect are free to stand without compulsion. The well having now been thoroughly poisoned… :rolleyes: Kaepernick and others do not kneel because they think the US is “not worthy of respect.” But I’m gratified you accept that it is entirely their right to do so, even when it offends you. > [@](#): > > However, it is insulting to our intelligence to pretend that protesting the anthem is anything other than what it obviously is, a premeditated sign of disrespect to our country. Nonsense. As it is nothing of the sort, they hardly need to pretend. > [@](#): > > They have plenty of places and times to protest anything they want but choose to do it during the two minutes a week when the national anthem plays. That is not a coincidence. They wanted controversy to attract attention and they got it. Ah, gotcha. They should protest someplace where \*you \*don’t have to see them. :rolleyes: again. Of _course they knew you’d be butthurt about it. I suspect they hope you will get over it to actually listen. But practically speaking, they don’t care_ about your parochial, repressive, arrogant, and self-centered views on what constitutes “proper” flag-worship. . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-military/807840.md?page=6)