# American flag raising: arrogant and inappropriate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132 "2003-03-21T16:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/1 "2003-03-21T16:11:03Z")
As I understood it, this war on Iraq was supposed to be about removing Saddam Hussein and liberating the Iraqi people, not conquering them. Why then are American troops raising the stars and stripes all over Iraq? From the wires: > [@](#): > > \*\*LONDON (AP) \_ A senior British official expressed concern Friday about the symbolism of U.S. forces raising their nation’s flag in Iraq. > > Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon promised to discuss the issue with U.S. officials after a lawmaker complained that a reported flag-raising by U.S. Marines in southern Iraq “sends out an unfortunate signal about the nature of the operation.” > > “I think it would be singularly unfortunate if the Stars and Stripes, for example, was to be planted over the Parliament building in Baghdad at a future stage of these operations,” said opposition Conservative lawmaker Crispin Blunt, a retired army officer.\*\* Compare this to the instructions given to British troops entering Iraq: > [@](#): > > \*\*On Wednesday, a British commander warned his troops not to engage in flag-waving. > > “We go to liberate, not to conquer,” Lt. Col. Tim Collins said in a speech to the 1st battalion of the Irish Guards. > > “We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them,” Collins said.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/2 "2003-03-21T16:14:23Z")
Come on, cut the poor guys some slack. These are mostly young soldiers, high on adrenalin, who’ve just had people shooting at them. Raising a flag to symbolise victory is unfortunately inappropriate from a diplomatic point of view, but I think it’s understandable and forgiveable from a soldier’s point of view. Besides, the flag was taken down shortly afterwards, according to BBC radio. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/3 "2003-03-21T16:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Reuters correspondent Adrian Croft said the Marines replaced an Iraqi flag over the new port complex in Umm Qasr with the Stars and Stripes, but later returned and removed the U.S. flag. > > They gave no reason for the action, but Washington has said repeatedly that it wants to “liberate” Iraq, not occupy it. [Cite](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20030321/ts_nm/iraq_dc) ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/4 "2003-03-21T16:23:11Z")
I can also “cite” that - I’ve seen the pictures (Reuters) with my own eyes. “Young soldiers” should be under the wiser, less adrenaline-fuelled control of their senior commanders. Are their commanders aware that they are doing this? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/5 "2003-03-21T16:24:19Z")
When American troops liberated France, the Netherlands, various Pacific islands, etc., in WWII, the American flag was raised as a matter of course, and it wasn’t considered arrogant or inappropriate. Hell, the flag-raising at Iwo Jima is still an iconic symbol - but it didn’t mean that the US was claiming Iwo Jima. Raising a flag doesn’t mean that the country whose flag is raised claims to own the turf. If that were true, then every nation in the world claims to own large chunks of New York City. :o In this war, some may perceive such flag raising in a negative light. That’s fine; the proper thing to do is say, “guys, that’s probably not a good idea,” not accuse them of being “arrogant.” More flies with honey (and it is more accurate). Sua ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/6 "2003-03-21T16:27:14Z")
Being military myself, albeit recently retired (Feb, 2000), my first reaction upon hearing about the flag raising was, “WTF? Didn’t the commanding officers think about that?” Then I realized that the COs have a lot of stuff to think about at the moment. Yes, it was ill-advised to raise the flag there. Even better was the immediate correction of the act. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/7 "2003-03-21T16:27:36Z")
Sorry **AZ** - I misread your post - I thought on first reading it applied to the flags going up, not being taken down. That’s great if they’re being removed. It would be nice if they could put up some peace symbol (something understood by Iraqis to mean peace) in place of the Iraqi flag, if they wanted to demonstrate that certain places were no longer under Saddam’s control. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/8 "2003-03-21T16:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*“Young soldiers” should be under the wiser, less adrenaline-fuelled control of their senior commanders. Are their commanders aware that they are doing this? \*\* Yes, and they made them take the flag down. What part of that don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/9 "2003-03-21T16:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*Sorry **AZ** - I misread your post - I thought on first reading it applied to the flags going up, not being taken down. > > That’s great if they’re being removed. > > It would be nice if they could put up some peace symbol (something understood by Iraqis to mean peace) in place of the Iraqi flag, if they wanted to demonstrate that certain places were no longer under Saddam’s control. \*\* They are demonstrating in some places that he is no longer in control. > [@](#): > > At Safwan, another town in the southeast, Iraqis waved in celebration as members of the 1st Marine Division hauled down giant portraits of Saddam Hussein. > > “We’re very happy. . . . Saddam Hussein is a butcher,” said a man in the back of a pickup truck, identifying himself only as Abdullah. A woman fell at the feet of the Americans and embraced them, touching their knees, the Associated Press reported. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/10 "2003-03-21T16:32:54Z")
I agree that the symbolism is bad. I think they should raise a US flag underneath the Iraqi flag to signify liberated areas. Like we fly the Florida flag under the US flag. Or, raise a separate US flag just below the existing Iraqi flags. In no case should there only be US flags flying over Iraq. But, I don’t think soldiers raising the flag has anything to do with US military occupation, reconstruction, or civilian governance policy. The plan is to get in and out as fast as is possible without leaving Iraq in disarray. Front line troops don’t make policy. And, as mentioned, they have their own reasons for raising flags. For one, to avoid getting shot at. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/11 "2003-03-21T16:36:28Z")
I find it interesting that a British officer spoke out about this, as the Marines that raised the flag are under British command. Also I think your statement of “all over” is just plain dishonest. They raised the flag over Umm Qasr briefly, and then took it down. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/12 "2003-03-21T16:42:12Z")
light strand: All US Marines are under US command. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/13 "2003-03-21T17:00:01Z")
“In no case should there only be US flags flying over Iraq.” Isn’t there a similar rule on US soil as well , ie.no international flags flying without a US flag? Respecting that rule in Iraq would be wise. ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/14 "2003-03-21T17:02:17Z")
**Suggestion:** Get the hell over it. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/15 "2003-03-21T17:11:07Z")
Sorry Monty. You’re wrong. The15th Marine Expeditionary Force is under direct British command. The British command of the 15th MEW is, of course, under US command from the top, but the Marines of the 15th MEW are responding directly to the orders of British officers. If your just being pedantic, then I suppose you’re right. In which case I suppose you could say that Bush himself should have told the Marines not to raise the flag. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/16 "2003-03-21T17:13:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*light strand: All US Marines are under US command. \*\* Ultimately, perhaps. But not in practice. > [@](#): > > \*\*British commanders reporting to Conway led the charge into the Al Faw peninsula in the very southeastern tip of Iraq and oversaw the U.S. Marines who were sent to take nearby Umm Qasr, the first time since World War II that American forces have answered to a British officer. \*\* [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4639-2003Mar21.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4639-2003Mar21.html) ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/17 "2003-03-21T17:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > \*\*“In no case should there only be US flags flying over Iraq.” > Isn’t there a similar rule on US soil as well , ie.no international flags flying without a US flag? Respecting that rule in Iraq would be wise. \*\* No such rule - which is fortunate, otherwise the owner of my favorite Mexican restaurant would have been tossed in jail years ago. 😉 Sua ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/18 "2003-03-21T17:38:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > \*\*“In no case should there only be US flags flying over Iraq.” > Isn’t there a similar rule on US soil as well , ie.no international flags flying without a US flag? Respecting that rule in Iraq would be wise. \*\* If Puerto Rican flags on cars count, then no. Central Florida joke. I’m not sure about the rules of flags. [Boy Scouts](http://post369.columbus.oh.us/scouting.d/flag.d/display.us.flag.html) Don’t laugh. > [@](#): > > When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they should be the same size and flown from separate staffs. Customs forbids the flag of one nation to fly over another in peacetime. “In peacetime…”? [Flag rules](http://vfw1679.tripod.com/flagrule.htm). I could not find rules concerning the present situation, in wartime and in another nation. Me, if I was in an area formerly occupied by Iraqi soldiers, I would run a US flag up underneath the Iraqi flag. Or, put one up seperately. Don’t sit underneath an Iraqi flag with B-52s prowling around looking for targets. ---
**Author:** ![Sinful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Sinful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinful)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/19 "2003-03-21T17:50:16Z")
Just like what the Nazi Germans did when they occupied Poland, France, Holland, Austria, Czechlosvakia etc… Raised their flag in those countries. Just like what the US is doing in Iraq. Very simular. Heil Bush ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132/20 "2003-03-21T17:59:36Z")
“No such rule - which is fortunate, otherwise the owner of my favorite Mexican restaurant would have been tossed in jail years ago.” By rule I didn’t necessarily mean something enforced by legal authorities. There is apparently a rule that no other national flag is flown in a position superior to the US flag. I don’t know if there is a corrolary which says that the US flag has to be there when some other national flag is flying. What makes this particular case inappropriate is that the US soldiers actually took down the Iraqi flag before putting up the US flag. And it’s been captured on photo so it will be used as propoganda around the Arab world. [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030321/161/3kxn1.html](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030321/161/3kxn1.html) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-flag-raising-arrogant-and-inappropriate/163132.md?page=2)