# American foreign policy atrocities vs benefits **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214 "2003-02-02T01:57:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/21 "2003-02-02T17:20:43Z")
How about creating a country where people like **mswas** can sit on his high horse and freely criticize without being harassed, rounded up, and tortured by jackbooted thugs? According to this site: [http://www.fas.usda.gov/food-aid.html](http://www.fas.usda.gov/food-aid.html) the US provided over 6 million metric tons of food assistance. I don’t know what % of total food assistance that is, but it’s a lot more than 0, which is the amount we are required to give. > [@](#): > > december: Umm, not creating an empire? Look around you buddy, we have the largest empire ever created. We have military bases in every part of the world. What other country has military bases in every region of the world? So how pray tell do you claim that America doesn’t have an empire? We dictate policy to the world, how is that not imperial? Simply having a large amount of influence is not considered an atrocity. Especially since our troops are or were performing such imperialist missions like keeping North Korea from sweeping into South Korea, preventing the USSR from occupying Europe, and performing various peacekeeping missions around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/22 "2003-02-02T17:32:57Z")
When will it be day December that you and I agree. In fact I am confortable with most of your list (and also think that you overlooked important wones) 1. Don’t call your oponent evil unless you are the Pope, he is the only infalible in that kind of issues. 2. Perhaps U.S.A contributes with 60% of food aid, but I can assure you it is not because of solidarity but has lot to do with your subsidies. At the end it brings misery to many and turn us into beggars. Another issue, democracy was born in Athens. From that moment on it lived in the heart of human beings if not in their institutions. I usually criticize America and I bet December is waiting for this: Pro: American revolution (1776?) inspired spain colonies own revolution. I can still remember my history classes: Teacher: What were the mediate causes of the May revolution? Me (always a bright student): English invasions, french revolution, and American Revolution. Teacher: And the inmediate causes? Me: Well, an American ship brought the news that Seville had fallen in the hands of Napoleon and with it the Central Junta, so the revolutionaries argued that without his master the viceroy had not powers to rule, therefore they would govern themselves “until the return of the king” (Tolkien is a thief). Alos (althoug december covered it) Aaron Copland was born in america. That is more than enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/23 "2003-02-02T17:49:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Allende was democratically elected… As was Mossadegh. Have to agree with **Mr.Svinlesha** - Overthrowing dictators is one thing, overthrowing popular elected officers who pose no immediate threat to world peace is quite another. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/24 "2003-02-02T17:55:48Z")
Rendering the other POV: **msmith** It looks to me like you need to get off your high horse. US is only one of many countries in the world where free speech exists… I have noticed over time that some Americans interchange the rest of the world for oppressed countries. I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted your statement. **Brutus** Lesser of two evils? Beyond the “Brutalian” revision of history you indulged in, this thread does not ask what was better for the US. It asks what are the wrongs and rights US has committed. Surely, you can differentiate between a right and a wrong action independent of whether the actions benefits you or not? Just a quick comment to \*\* december’s \*\* statement: > [@](#): > > – Contributions in technology and the arts too numerous to list. I would place American contributions in Science and Technology as one of their greatest achievements. The spirit of scientific inquiry is amongst the highest in the world. At the same time, I would like to add that every culture makes contributions to the arts and it is silly to call that an American “benefit”. Sadly, given the nature of US’s power, their writers, film-makers and poets get more visibility around the world. (Aren’t we supposed to be talking about strictly foreign policy in this thread?) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/25 "2003-02-02T18:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by litost \* > **msmith** > It looks to me like you need to get off your high horse. US is only one of many countries in the world where free speech exists… I have noticed over time that some Americans interchange the rest of the world for oppressed countries. I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted your statement. > \*\* I was not trying to imply that the US was the only country allowing free speech or even the nation that started the trend. And the fact is that much of the world is oppressed in some form or another. And I don’t mean being forced to watch American movies or drink our soft drinks. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/26 "2003-02-02T19:03:12Z")
Atrocities: The Slave Trade Making treaties with the Native Americans then breaking them. Japanese internment camps. CIA (or was it the FBI) testing drugs on people in the, what was it, the 50’s or so… Benefits: Helping to end W.W.II. Ending the rule of the Taliban. Protecting S. Korea from N. Korea. Arresting Manuel Noriega. Freeing Kuwait. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/27 "2003-02-02T21:03:18Z")
# Good Keeping the light of democracy alive during WW2. Providing the fuel to keep that light burning through the Marshal Plan and similar programs in Asia. Leading the coalition to remove Iraq from Kuwait. Intervening to help bring WW1 to an end. Starting the momentum that lead to the League of Nations and ultimately the United Nations. Reigning in the excesses of the other powers at Versailles. The Berlin Airlift. Providing much of the drive that lead to the end of the European empires. Keeping Western Europe safe from the threat of Soviet power and ultimately helping Eastern Europe and Russia itself to break out from the yoke of communist dictatorships. Removal of the Taliban. The Panama Canal. Helping to keep S. Korea and Taiwan free and democratic. # Not so good The massacre and subjugation of the Indian nations. Betrayal of the Philippines after the Spanish American War. Giving tacit support to Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor. Giving tacit support to Iraq’s plan to invade Kuwait. The destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima and subsequent arms race. Repeated veto of UN resolutions condeming Israeli atrocities. Undermining democracy in several instances including Chile and Iran. Unilateral invasions in several instances including Grenada and Panama. CIA support for terrorism in Central America. Extending the misery of western imperialism in Vietnam. Support for brutal dictatorships like Saddam’s. Arms sales to aforementioned brutal dictatorships (including chemical and biological weapons). Isolation of Cuba. Undermining socialism in several European countries such as Italy in the post war years. Creating a climate of fear and hostility in the middle east leading to the rise of Islamist terrorist groups. It’s a shame we are limited to foreign policy - My _good_ list would be endless if we were permitted to including America’s contributions to democracy, science, technology and the arts. Postscript Claiming that the US helped to end apartheid is revisionism at best. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/28 "2003-02-02T21:54:27Z")
Missed a few … # Good The Bretton Woods agreement created a framework for international agreements The Peace Corp. Kennedy’s handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Camp David Accords and the Oslo agreement. # Bad Iran-Contra Undermining the establishment of international law and multi-lateral cooperation : - Kyoto - International Criminal Court - Comprehensive test Ban treaty - anti-ballistic missile treaty The Bush doctrine of the right of pre-emptive attack ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/29 "2003-02-02T22:24:37Z")
I was thinking that it might be a good idea to start a thread of a similar nature on other countries in the world. Then, one can see how each country has its hands and legs dipped in a fair share of blood proportional to its power. US takes a greater beating only because of the long shadow it casts. (Much cynicism about the state of world affairs. So few true leaders…) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/30 "2003-02-03T05:03:51Z")
litost: Yeah, that would be cool too. I’ll let people who know more about those other countries than I start them. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/31 "2003-02-03T05:04:57Z")
msmith: Why is it that every time someone even questions the United States, someone has to bring up the right of free speech. It’s pretty fucking clear to me that I have the right of free speech. I’m excercising it right here, and you’re criticizing me for it. Erek ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/32 "2003-02-03T07:20:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > > And the fact is that much of the world is oppressed in some form or another. And I don’t mean being forced to watch American movies or drink our soft drinks. Well…you said: > [@](#): > > How about creating a country where people like mswas can sit on his high horse and freely criticize without being harassed, rounded up, and tortured by jackbooted thugs? …implying it was somewhat special here and I pointed out that at least a third of the world enjoy expression free from worrying about being rounded up and tortured by jackbooted thugs. (As an aside, I think this statement to mswas was uncalled for…this is not an USA vs. mswas battle) ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/33 "2003-02-03T07:22:15Z")
I think US’s greatest foreign policy achievement is yet to come. It has the potential to create peace in the Middle-East. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/34 "2003-02-03T07:48:28Z")
litost: I think that would be great, but it would require a different administration, or else crushing the Arabs so wholly, so completely that they’d be unwilling to fight any longer, I’d say 200,000,000 deaths ought to do it. Levelling Mecca and Medina wouldn’t hurt to that end either. In otherwords it would require a different administration. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/35 "2003-02-03T07:58:47Z")
One of the dumbest things ever said, or repeated, on these boards is “levelling Mecca and Medina wouldn’t hurt.” Are you completely unaware that there are many Muslims who reside in countries other than Saudi Arabia and are loyal to their countries? Levelling the two most holy places in the world to them would certainly hurt and you’d have a bit more of a problem than what’s happening now. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/36 "2003-02-03T13:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by litost_ > implying [free speech] was somewhat special here and I pointed out that at least a third of the world enjoy expression It is special, especially if you live in the other two thirds of the world. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > msmith: Why is it that every time someone even questions the United States, someone has to bring up the right of free speech. Because there is an inherent irony in painting America to be an “evil empire” while exercising the very rights that separate America from a true empire. If you want to criticize American foriegn policy or specific historical incidents, that is certainly your right. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > It’s pretty fucking clear to me that I have the right of free speech. I’m excercising it right here, and you’re criticizing me for it. > \*\* Yes…because I too have the right to free speech. If you don’t want your opinion criticized, I suggest you not post it in a public forum. Especially if you post a topic that you know will likely be inflamatory. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/37 "2003-02-03T14:22:55Z")
_Benefit_ The worst-treated race in history is the Jews. America was instrumental in curtailing the most effective systematic genocide in history, and can be thanked for the continuation of Jewish culture when it could, literally, have been wiped from the face of the planet. _Atrocity_ The second-worst-treated race in history is the native Americans. The sheer number and diversity of language and cultures, not to mention individuals, whose extermination the formation of the US was _directly responsible_ for, rivals any genocide in history. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/38 "2003-02-03T15:47:00Z")
Well, SentientMeat, not to detract from the things the US is guilty of, I’ve got to say that most of that was put in progress or accomplished far before George Washington was born. The disease vector brought by the colonists wiped a lot of people out, and really started things on their way before the US started muscling people about. That’s not to say the US didn’t finish the job, but we can’t take all the blame for starting it. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/39 "2003-02-03T15:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > …overthrowing popular elected officers who pose no immediate threat to world peace is quite another. Agreed. But, the grey area cases are tough. What do you do when the president is popularly elected, suspends the constitution, institutes martial law, dismisses the legislature, begins collecting political opponents’ heads on a stick, BUT, does not threaten his neighbors? It is one thing to say, “the US is not the world’s policeman,” another to say, “that means don’t do anything about internal brutality or genocide.” Historical critics will attack action or inaction. This is one reason nations get involved in ugly covert operations. Of course, those are _really_ attacked by the critics. I’m aware of the abuses of the military for almost purely economic reasons, but the hypothetical is valid IMO. Other grey area situations arise all the time. What constitutes “threatening” a neighboring nation? Is North Korea doing it right now? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214/40 "2003-02-03T16:01:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by **Texican** :_ > One example you should think about is the Phillipines. They decided they didn’t want us there anymore, and we left. Didn’t the Mount Pinatubo volcanic eruption make it uneconomic to maintain the US bases in the Phillipines around this time? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy-atrocities-vs-benefits/152214.md?page=3)