# American Foreign Policy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696 "2011-09-18T04:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Maryhartslegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Maryhartslegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maryhartslegs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/1 "2011-09-18T04:30:51Z")
Where is the Morality? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/2 "2011-09-18T04:34:36Z")
Should American conduct their affairs with a higher level of morality than any other nation? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/3 "2011-09-18T04:37:38Z")
> [@Maryhartslegs](#): > > Where is the Morality? It’s with the rest of the OP. When you find it let us know. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/4 "2011-09-18T05:06:34Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Should American conduct their affairs with a higher level of morality than any other nation? “Jimmy’s Mom lets him do it” is the kind of defense that works poorly even when you are in grade school. And that’s even assuming that America’s behave IS the equal of other nations and not worse. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/5 "2011-09-18T05:08:48Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Should American conduct their affairs with a higher level of morality than any other nation? [The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/) seems like a good baseline. Oh wait > [@](#): > > Article 5. > > ``` > No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. > > ``` > [@](#): > > Article 9. > > ``` > No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile. > > ``` > > Article 10. > > ``` > Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him. > > ``` > [@](#): > > Article 25. > > ``` > (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. > > ``` Guess we fucked that one up. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/6 "2011-09-18T05:20:23Z")
Hey, it’s not my OP. I didn’t say anything is ok as long as others do it, just want to know what metric we’re using and if the US is expected to be above a certain bar. I have to assume **Maryhartslegs** is trying to make a point, I have to _assume_ that because right now I have no fucking idea what this is about. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/7 "2011-09-18T05:32:29Z")
It ain’t illegal if you don’t get caught. The problem is simply that we got caught. Otherwise, I suspect that there isn’t a nation in the world (including France, the UK, Germany, etc.) which doesn’t break at least some of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on a monthly basis, via their special or secret services. Generally, this is done quietly, with proper care given to make sure that all is deniable, and everything unproveable. The only difference is that Bush II or Cheney, for no obvious reason, decided to do it publicly for a change and that left messy loose ends that can’t be easily re-hidden. We effectively have to wait out the natural lives of our victims, trying to keep them in a political limbo for all that time, so that they have no legal recourse. We still have special forces and secret agents roaming the Earth. They’re probably still doing something illegal every day. The problems that Bush left us with doesn’t negate the necessity of playing the game, it’s just a good reminder to keep it on the down-low. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/8 "2011-09-18T05:39:05Z")
“The game” isn’t necessary, and it isn’t a _game_, it’s evil. Nor do I think that it is nearly as common as you think because such behavior is stupid and largely pointless as well as evil. And it’s still illegal if you don’t get caught, too. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/9 "2011-09-18T05:40:11Z")
How bout we wait for \*\*Maryhartslegs \*\*to say something before we decide if we agree with him or not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/10 "2011-09-18T05:47:40Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > How bout we wait for \*\*Maryhartslegs \*\*to say something before we decide if we agree with him or not. For all we know he/she might never post again. So we might as well argue about the morality of American foreign policy until they do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/11 "2011-09-18T05:47:49Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > How bout we wait for \*\*Maryhartslegs \*\*to say something before we decide if we agree with him or not. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/12 "2011-09-18T12:37:15Z")
It’s pointless to debate it, when there is no willingness to debate a point, **Der Trihs**. Your opinions are not facts. Maybe starting with a debate on the nature of evil and how it relates to real world political dealings would be a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/13 "2011-09-18T12:47:13Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > It’s pointless to debate it, when there is no willingness to debate a point, **Der Trihs**. > > Your opinions are not facts. It is however a fact that actual interrogation experts consider torture worse than useless. And doing things that are worse than useless is naturally not necessary. And not getting caught doesn’t make a crime any less a crime. Complaining that what I said is “just an opinion” doesn’t make me wrong; it doesn’t even make what I said just my opinion. And the fact that the _morality_ of torture is even considered seriously debatable is a sign of how morally vile and corrupt this country has become. And if that offends pro-torture people, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/14 "2011-09-18T17:33:16Z")
On these points, I agree with you. Where I disagree with you is your apparent belief that there is some other nation on the planet that doesn’t do what the US does, or wouldn’t do what the US does if placed in the same situation. You bang the “The US is da EBIL!” drum all day long, but it makes no sense when at best the song should be “Humans are da EBIL!”. The US is not any more villanous than anyone else. Your opinion that it is has no basis in fact. Bad things happen. Bad policy decisions are made, and hopefully those policies will be done away with. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/15 "2011-09-18T17:52:52Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Bad things happen. Bad policy decisions are made, and hopefully those policies will be done away with. Torture is not a bad policy decision, it’s a cold blooded act. Those who do it should face justice, that they haven’t been brought to justice shows an inherent evil in the American system. “Just following orders” wasn’t an excuse in WWII and isn’t now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/16 "2011-09-18T18:19:33Z")
> [@Maryhartslegs](#): > > Where is the Morality? It’s hiding under my bed. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/17 "2011-09-18T20:27:35Z")
> [@Maryhartslegs](#): > > Where is the Morality? We’re a moral country and have a moral foreign policy. We give tremendous amounts of aid in help reconstructing countries that tried to kill us (Germany, Japan, Afghanistan, Iraq etc.), we engage in humanitarian interventions without regard to self-interest, and so on. How moral can you get? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/18 "2011-09-18T20:56:20Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > You bang the “The US is da EBIL!” drum all day long, but it makes no sense when at best the song should be “Humans are da EBIL!”. The US is not any more villanous than anyone else. Your opinion that it is has no basis in fact. While the opinion that the US is not more or less villanous than anyone else may or may not be true, it is not logically impossible for it to be so. You would agree that certain governments _are_ or have been _more_ evil than average? Then it is possible for any government to be more or less evil than average. Since we agree that all government are not equally evil, it then not a logical dead end to ask whether the US is one of the more evil ones. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/19 "2011-09-18T21:06:53Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Torture is not a bad policy decision, it’s a cold blooded act. Those who do it should face justice, that they haven’t been brought to justice shows an inherent evil in the American system. > > “Just following orders” wasn’t an excuse in WWII and isn’t now. I agree, for what that’s worth. Though, the matter of if water boarding is actually torture is still being discussed all over the place. Given that McCain, a man who had it done to him by the enemy says that it is, I tend to agree that it is. That being said, that grey zone makes the issue complicated, but if it is determined at some point that it is illegal, and it shouldn’t have been used, than those who ORDERED it should face consequences. Of course, that will never happen. > [@Ludovic](#): > > While the opinion that the US is not more or less villanous than anyone else may or may not be true, it is not logically impossible for it to be so. You would agree that certain governments _are_ or have been _more_ evil than average? Then it is possible for any government to be more or less evil than average. Since we agree that all government are not equally evil, it then not a logical dead end to ask whether the US is one of the more evil ones. Yes, I fully admit that there are areas where the US is probably “more evil” than other nations. Though you then have the issue of trying to determine what exactly is “evil”. PErsonally, I feel that while we have ways to go, especially with foreign relations, we probably skew more towards the “good” side of things. However, my comment was specifically addressed at **Der Trihs** , who makes the point that the US is the all time evil of all evils, US Soldiers are all murderers who should die, that the government is run by villains who laugh with glee at innocents being killed, and other vile and slanderous statements designed to make the US into some sort of real world version of Latveria or something. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/20 "2011-09-18T21:20:30Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Torture is not a bad policy decision, it’s a cold blooded act. Those who do it should face justice, that they haven’t been brought to justice shows an inherent evil in the American system. > > “Just following orders” wasn’t an excuse in WWII and isn’t now. “Just following orders” was not an excuse for the Germans. For the Allies - hell, we didn’t even bother with a trial. First you must come up with an agreement as to what torture is, and I am fully aware of the various definitions out there. Then you have to decided if there are different levels. Then you have to decide how to apply the definition. What is severe suffering? I would argue that any prison lockup is severe suffering, but we don’t mind locking up prisoners. That is just torture. The OP’s drive-by mentioned American Foreign Policy. Is our aid policy immoral? How about when we send food someplace? Does international trade count? Shall we discuss UN peacekeeping activities? Is a NATO led mission US foreign policy, or can we blame someone else. If you are going to go after the morality of US foreign policy, you need to start someplace with a specific area. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696.md?page=2)