# American Foreign Policy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696 "2011-09-18T04:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ajb867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@ajb867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajb867)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/41 "2011-09-20T03:42:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Most countries don’t. Because what we did was stupid. > _SNIP_ Even you are too smart to actually believe this. Nice poker face though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/42 "2011-09-20T03:53:18Z")
> [@weaselfish](#): > > Technically, Germany declared war on us, shortly after Pearl Harbor. Yes. How many American cities did they bomb? They tried to defeat your military (and ours, by the way), but that’s a far cry from “trying to kill you” as a nation as per Curtis’ claims. > [@](#): > > Something being a “military target” doesn’t negate the fact that they attacked us and “tried to kill us.” No, it completely contradicts it. How many American cities did Japan attack? I mean really attack, blitzkrieg style. > [@](#): > > True, to certain level. But Afghanistan was complacently hosting the organization that did, and certainly wasn’t (capable of?) taking action to do something about it. Not that I’m 100% onboard with the war in Afghanistan, but our justifications were certainly much more concrete than with Iraq. That’s not the issue. The issue is whether or not they tried to kill you. Seems a pretty roundabout way of doing it, if that was Afghanistan’s plan as per Curtis’ claims. > [@](#): > > Now our intentions…gut feelings tell me a certain pipeline and geopolitical strategy were heavy factors. Actually I think the intent was honest, believe it or not. It was hamfisted and ineffective, but I can certainly see why it took place. It was and is just entirely the wrong approach. > [@](#): > > It’s a tough case to make that the United States is a moral force in the world. No kidding! > [@](#): > > If I had to some it up, like virtually all governments in the world we act in our own interest. I believe we have good intentions and we are moral when it suits us. If you’re not moral when it suits you, you’re not moral. > [@](#): > > Usually when there is money on the table, we are going to throw our weight into the struggle to get it. My gut feeling isn’t that the US as a people is amoral, it’s that the wealthy elite that run this country want to stay wealthy, elite, and running this country. I’ve found that one-on-one, Americans are singularly nice people. Mind you, I haven’t been to the States in 12 years, and things can change. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/43 "2011-09-20T04:01:31Z")
> [@ajb867](#): > > Even you are too smart to actually believe this. Nice poker face though. Ah, a personal insult and unsupported criticism in place of an actual argument. And as it happens, yes I find it perfectly plausible that an Administration known worldwide for its stupidity will do things that other nations are simply not stupid enough to do. Things that Bush I and Clinton weren’t stupid enough to do, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/44 "2011-09-20T04:11:25Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > [KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation - Wikisource, the free online library](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/KUBARK_Counterintelligence_Interrogation#VIII._The_Non-Coercive_Counterintelligence_Interrogation) > > Given that we do not know how often torture has been used, nor how effective it was, and no one can legally admit to having done it, the question of its efficacy is moot. There is circumstantial evidence that it was an effective tool for Israel, but that is circumstantial. Ultimately, I’ve looked for any actual data, and have found none. I am sure that you have expended far less effort than I have to find data. [Extraordinary rendition - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States) Extraordinary rendition was only flying prisoners to other countries to get horribly tortured and sometimes killed. Do we have no responsibility for that . Can you actually pretend that we don’t torture? The experts say it does not work and it diminishes us. But some have to try and justify anything we do. ---
**Author:** ![ajb867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@ajb867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajb867)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/45 "2011-09-20T04:20:21Z")
Location: California How do you sleep at night Der Trihs? Do you actually believe what you are saying? Are you going to be the positive change the “Administration” desperately needs? I mean there is no way a quick google search would indicate other countries depriving basic human rights from their own citizens or non citizens right? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/46 "2011-09-20T04:45:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The experts say it does not work The experts to whom you choose to listen say that. I’ve seen an even body on either side of the argument, and no data to support either side. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/47 "2011-09-20T10:06:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Most countries don’t. Because what we did was stupid. > > Oh, nonsense. America is more villainous than many other countries; most countries haven’t even bothered to build the kinds of military and other resources necessary to match us that way. > > :rolleyes: Iraq didn’t “try to kill us”, that was a war of pure conquest and malice on our part. And we’ve left them in ruins and demanded they pay us for the privilege of being bombed and tortured and slaughtered. And the “reconstruction” consisted primarily of funneling government money into Republican-tied businesses while doing nothing useful. As for Afghanistan, we haven’t accomplished anything there but sit around while torturing and killing people nearly at random. > > And of course we train and support worldwide torturers, terrorists, death squads and dictators. I give up. If you think the mere act of building a military is villanous than you live in a comic book. What sucks is you make some valid points, but they are buried in the nonsensical super-partisan garbage that you post. Yes, we should not have invaded Iraq. That invasion was handled badly, and the “occupation” (which of course was no such thing, but I digress) was flawed as well. But your statements here about slaughtering them en masse is foolish in the extreme. However, your stance on rooting for insurgents to kill US soldiers is well known. I think I’m done with trying to make you see facts, or at least take them into account. Goodbye. I will miss your excellent posts in CS, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/48 "2011-09-20T11:19:59Z")
“Is this the right forum for an argument?” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/49 "2011-09-20T11:48:40Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I give up. > > If you think the mere act of building a military is villanous than you live in a comic book. :rolleyes: No, I didn’t say that or even imply it. I was pointing out that it is _impossible to perform_ many of the “villainous” acts that America has committed, unless you actually have such things as a massive military capable of threatening & conquering faraway countries. So the people who keep trying to pretend that other countries are doing the same evil things that America is are wrong, because those other countries haven’t even built what they’d need to in order to commit such acts in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/50 "2011-09-20T15:16:53Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Now our intentions…gut feelings tell me a certain pipeline and geopolitical strategy were heavy factors. > > Actually I think the intent was honest, believe it or not. It was hamfisted and ineffective, but I can certainly see why it took place. It was and is just entirely the wrong approach. No, the Afghans were quite willing to hand Osama over, after 9/11. Yet this was brushed aside and kept quiet. The US leadership wanted an invasion, not a head on a platter. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696/51 "2011-09-20T15:20:42Z")
> [@Maryhartslegs](#): > > Where is the Morality? Next to the Frequency, Kenneth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-foreign-policy/596696.md?page=2)