# American High Speed Rail is a Terrible Idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404 "2021-04-04T21:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/422 "2021-07-10T18:20:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Where are you getting 69 hours from? > **[Chicago to Los Angeles Train - Amtrak Tickets $145 | Wanderu](https://www.wanderu.com/en-us/train/us-il/chicago/us-ca/los-angeles/)** > > Find the best deals on train tickets from Chicago, IL to Los Angeles, CA. You can compare the best prices from all train lines and book online directly with Wanderu. > [@](#): > > There are 9 daily trains from Chicago to Los Angeles. Traveling by train from Chicago to Los Angeles usually takes around 69 hours and 45 minutes, but the fastest Amtrak Southwest Chief train can make the trip in 43 hours and 10 minutes. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > As long as we are talking numbers, I’m also curious as to where you got your $500 million a mile figure from. I’m not seeing anything close to that. The California project which would be travelling through mountains, needing bridges and tunnels, averaged at $82-$154 million per mile, bt most estimates I see over generally flat land is around $10-$15 million per mile. > > I think that you are seriously overinflating the costs and times associated with HSR, while seriously underestimating the costs and times of your other imagined alternatives. It wasn’t me that put up that number. However, as I understand it, the current California HSR is now budgeted for $117 billion, and the distance is 238 miles for the currently proposed track between Bakersfield and Merced. That’s about $438 million per mile. You are right that some of this is through mountains, and California is particularly insane about regulations and costs are out of control in that state because of it. I imagine running track through the flat prairies would be considerably cheaper. But there will be lawsuits every step of the way, and you would likely have to invoke eminent domain many times and seize property to build a new national track system. You can’t run HSR on existing track without lowering the speed to existing train speeds, and if the HSR is electric you’ couldn’t domit at all. And we are doing all this for what? Who is clamoring for trains, other than the lobbyists whispering into politician’s ears? is there an obvious need for such expensive infrastructure? Is the money better spent on trains which don’t help global warming at all, and actually make it worse for decades? Where are the bottlenecks in transportation that this will remove? How will diverting massive resources to this help the economy or the planet? HSR won’t even create that many jobs, as nearly all the hardware and expertise will be outsourced to Europe and Asia. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee7513/32.png) [@Mona\_Lott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lott)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/423 "2021-07-10T21:53:00Z")
Please give a credible citation for your claim of 9 passenger trains operating between Chicago and Los Angeles. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/424 "2021-07-10T22:16:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@UltraVires](#): > > > > I guess this is where some differences of opinion and comfort come into play. Let’s take Pittsburgh to D.C. About 250 miles. A 4 hour drive. Probably (guessing) a 1 hour plane ride. Suppose we invested billions and built a HSR that averaged 125mph and it was a 2 hour train ride. > > 1 hour plane ride but you need to be at the airport 90 minutes before your flight and you need to commute to the airport which is probably an hour plus cost of the taxi or parking and then the same on the other side. > > Your 1 hour plane ride has become a 4.5 hour adventure. And that assumes no problems. > > And arguing a remote airport versus city center makes no sense. City center drop-off is far more desirable. It’s not even close. Pittsburgh/DC is definitely one of those awkward edge cases. Meeting in the western burbs? I’ll fly. At Pitt or CMU? Maybe I’ll drive. But very few regular business travelers are arriving at DCA 90 minutes early. That’s an amateur move that we beat out of the new hires quickly. And while PIT is a long way from the city, DCA is not. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/425 "2021-07-10T22:35:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Where are you getting 69 hours from? I was curious myself and found the _Texas Eagle_ runs from Chicago to San Antonio where three cars are tacked onto the _Sunset Limited_ – New Orleans to Los Angeles. Elapsed time from Chicago to LA is 65 hours which I judged close enough to 69 and didn’t raise a fuss. However the _Southwest Chief_ runs a more direct route from Chicago to LA and takes only 46 hours. Unless you really want to see Arkansas and Texas more than Kansas and Colorado, you’re going to take the _Chief._ More likely someone who lives in those different intermediate towns the _Eagle_ serves would use it to get to the west coast, not someone in Chicago. It reminded me of when I wanted to fly round trip from Phoenix to San Jose and went to a website where airlines could offer a bid to fly with them. I went with the one that offered a direct, non-stop flight in 90 minutes for $110 rather than the one that wanted me to pay $650 to fly by way of Minneapolis with two stops and a change of plane each way in 18 hours. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/426 "2021-07-10T23:15:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I just looked it up, and I could get a ticket from Chicago to La for $146 that would take a 19 hours, 10 minutes. I think your linked website is a bit broken. I see on Trainbuster a train from Chicago to LA that takes 4hr, 20m, which means it would run at nearly 500mph the whole way, no stops. I think they forgot to add in the days on rail. Wanderu clocks that trip at 19hr, 10m + _one day_ = 43 hours 10 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/427 "2021-07-11T02:26:59Z")
> [@Mona\_Lott](#): > > Please give a credible citation for your claim of 9 passenger trains operating between Chicago and Los Angeles. I just did. Read the link. > [@DesertDog](#): > > However the _Southwest Chief_ runs a more direct route from Chicago to LA and takes only 46 hours. I don’t see that as being materially different. Whether you are choosing 48 hours or 69 hours, both are of a completely different nature than a 3.5 hour flight. If there were massive savings I could see some poorer people choosing that, bit there isn’t. So the only people likely to use it are people who like trains and train travel for its own sake. There aren’t nearly enough such people to make most trains either profitable or energy efficient. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/428 "2021-07-11T02:43:37Z")
My brother doesn’t care for flying and in college generally spent 26 hours on the Southwest Chief instead of 3 hours on Southwest. I used the Pennsylvanian some in college, as I didn’t have a car for three years, and frankly the overnight Pennsylvanian to Chicago (which no longer goes that far) or a trip to Philly on the same followed by the Acela Regional to BWI (though the timing never worked out to fly same day) wasn’t terrible. But I could never get myself to spend basically 48 hours (with layovers) to do something I could fly nonstop. Frankly, at times I’d rather travel the Big Gray Dog if I wasn’t flying. At least then you’d probably get some amusing stories out of it. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/429 "2021-07-11T02:44:10Z")
Ordinarily coach is cheaper than air, faster than the bus and yeah, I prefer rail and being retired, can spare the time. The question is how direct are the two points. A couple years ago when I wanted to go to Corpus Christie I drove from Phoenix. And if you see no difference between less than two days (46 hours) and nearly three (69) then I guess you can’t tell. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/430 "2021-07-11T11:23:56Z")
After more through on the OP’s contention, it has a fatal flaw. Car transport can only reach so high before alternate means, such as HSR is needed to allow car transportation to continue. Basically cars need trains, however trains don’t need cars. There is simply not enough roads that can be built to accommodate cars once population density reaches a certain level, and it gets to a tipping point that the more roads you built the more cars come to jam them up, and that land that the roads need becomes very expensive and in high demand. Now perhaps with a authoritarian government telling people who can own and drive a car, and where people can live we should be able to pull off a car only culture. As opposed to car transit, train transit works opposite (to a point), more people using cars = slower transit time (in general), but with more people using trains travel time goes down both for train travel time and also for car travel time (as there will be less cars on the road as people select train travel). So again cars require trains, and a road system is helped by making trains fast and efficient so people consider that option as stay off the road, freeing space for the other cars and thus helping them on their trips. Making trains HSR will make train travel more attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/431 "2021-07-11T15:15:11Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > But very few regular business travelers are arriving at DCA 90 minutes early. That’s an amateur move that we beat out of the new hires quickly. And while PIT is a long way from the city, DCA is not. My former roommate was a salesman and travelled nationally for his job. He flew several times a week and I was often surprised at how close he would cut the times to arrive for a flight. But he was super-well practiced at it. That said, a few things: - He was relying on traffic being predictable. Usually it was but not always. - He had set himself up for expedited security screenings. There is a thing you can do to make your trip through security quicker. Most frequent travelers have that. - Because he traveled so much he had a gazillion miles accumulated on his airline of choice. That afforded him all sorts of extra perks including early boarding and not getting bumped if the plane was oversold. For us travelling peons, arriving 90 minutes before the flight is not a bad idea (maybe 60 minutes). And by “arrive” I mean walking in the front door of the airport. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/432 "2021-07-11T15:20:25Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Frankly, at times I’d rather travel the Big Gray Dog if I wasn’t flying. At least then you’d probably get some amusing stories out of it. What about the Green Tortoise? 🐢 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/433 "2021-07-11T15:25:57Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > If you want to go cross-country on Amtrack, Chicago to Seattle will set you back by over $1000. > > Say what? I just checked on Amtrak and a coach ticket is considerably less than that. No, you’re thinking of Am **trak**. If you want to travel by Am **track** , it’s pretty spendy. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/434 "2021-07-11T17:53:48Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > If you want to travel by Am **track** , it’s pretty spendy. Must be that luxury line I’ve been hearing rumors about like that [Orient Express](https://www.belmond.com/trains/europe/venice-simplon-orient-express/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwraqHBhDsARIsAKuGZeHqgZ09Jf2kz-UOO7NvU5TNvl-tDiTrG2q-hyBLEA_49ezwB0EoFpsaAhZTEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds) thing in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/435 "2021-07-11T18:27:10Z")
Since we’re nitpicking spelling now, I’ll just assume you’ve got nuthin’ serious to add to the discussion. For anyone who actually wants to have a Great Debate, here’s another good paper on energy intensity in transportation that makes points on both sides: > **[sustainability-11-01200.pdf](https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/sustainability/sustainability-11-01200/article_deploy/sustainability-11-01200.pdf)** > > 625.52 KB ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/436 "2021-07-12T13:05:49Z")
Tibet’s now got it. > **[Tibet's first bullet train line enters service](https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/lhasa-nyingchi-high-speed-railway-china-tibet/index.html)** > > A 435-kilometer (250-mile) rail line connecting Tibetan capital Lhasa with the city of Nyingchi has entered into service, giving all 31 provincial-level regions of mainland China access to high-speed train travel. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/437 "2021-07-12T15:48:31Z")
China has it. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/438 "2021-07-12T16:53:24Z")
Any day now they will realize that on the wrong track and start building roads. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/439 "2021-07-12T16:58:36Z")
Kind of reminds me of the original _Sim City_ where the solution to traffic woes was to put in 100% light rail. You still get complaints about wanting more roads but in the _advice_ section of the instruction manual was “They just want to drive their hot rods around. Ignore them.” ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/440 "2021-07-12T22:49:27Z")
Again, the main reason we cannot build high speed rail in America is that our civil court system is completely open to bad-faith actors gaming safety, labor, and environmental regulations, or the fact that you can file as many lawsuits as you want that don’t even invoke any real principle at all, to use courts as an open-ended block on anything they don’t want done. The people who don’t want rail built have plenty of money for lawyers to abuse this process. This is a problem that has repeatedly blocked rail projects over the past 20 years, and it must be solved before HSR becomes viable. China’s solution is to be an authoritarian regime in which no one has any right to access the justice system at all beyond what the dictatorship allows and there are no meaningful labor safety, labor, or environmental regulations. This approach has many other moral and social costs and is not the way to solve the problem. It’s almost as if “but at least they make the trains run on time” as an apology for unfree societies has literally been a cliche for decades. ---
**Author:** ![LivingGhost371](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@LivingGhost371](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LivingGhost371)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/441 "2021-07-13T15:38:18Z")
So, what’s stopping our existing airlines from taking the load off the highways, like we do now. Also, except for urban freeways, we have a long ways to go before this is a systematic issue. Like probably doubling our population. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404.md?page=23)