# American High Speed Rail is a Terrible Idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404 "2021-04-04T21:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/141 "2021-04-06T20:21:19Z")
We’d see most of these same things for high-speed roads for autonomous vehicles, so what are you actually proposing? Autonomous vehicles operating at 70mph aren’t an equivalent option to HSR, so are you comparing current Amtrak speeds versus current highway speeds, or high-speed rail versus new roads for faster private limos? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/142 "2021-04-06T20:52:24Z")
**Modnote** : This is attacking a poster and not his posts. Please do not do this again. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/143 "2021-04-06T20:52:43Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Can back that up? I don’t know of any reason why relatively lightweight cars on dedicated HOV-like lanes would be more taxing for the roads than heavy truck traffic. It’s not taxing on the roads, it’s that they were not built for that sort of speed. Sure, the straightaways may be good for some high speeds, and I’ll admit that back when I did the Cincinnati-Columbus drive twice a week, I went at around the speeds that we are talking about for portions of I-71. But I’ve done a lot of driving, and most interstates are not safe to drive at much more than the posted speeds. Even with computer control, the curves are just too sharp, the inclines and declines too great for 125+MPH. The also need to be in really good condition. Hitting breaks in pavement at 65mph is a bit jarring, hitting them at 125 could be catastrophic. So, we would really need to pretty much overhaul the majority of our interstate infrastructure, and spend far more on maintenance, in order to accomodate cars at such speeds. Also, what are we doing with the trucks? Are they sharing the interstate, are they traveling at the same speeds, or are they just going to be lumbering barricades that need to be navigated? If they are not sharing the same interstate infrastructure, then are we just building a whole new road network? I see a great use for electric self driving cars, and I can’t wait until we have them available. But they won’t replace the need for longer distance transit. Personally I think we should be investing _more_ into high speed mass transit. A maglev that crosses the country should be our Apollo project. Getting from NY to LA in 12 hours or less on a train would be a pretty nice piece of infrastructure. It should replace a fair amount of air travel, if it is considerably cheaper and more comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/144 "2021-04-06T21:07:06Z")
The German autobahn was largely designed before the US’s interstate system and they have plenty of speed limits in places (a fact that I proved by getting my very first speeding ticket). The US interstate system probably supports 125+ mph better than the German autobahn. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/145 "2021-04-06T21:20:42Z")
Range and efficiency of an electric vehicle drops quite a bit at speeds that high. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/146 "2021-04-06T21:46:52Z")
To be clear, I was not suggesting that there needs to be some sort of ‘replacement’ for HSR, because I don’t see the need for it _now._ My point was not that something new is needed, but that soon HSR won’t be able to compete with cars in the medium-distance routes where a train might make sense. HSR’s competition for long distance travel isn’t cars, it’s aircraft. The problem with trains is that they only make sense for very specific regimes - places too close for air travel and too far for car travel. But as cars get better, and especially if they are automated, they will be used more for longer trips, narrowing the ‘window’ for trains. Canada was full of nation-spanning passenger trains a few decades ago. We even had high speed rail. None of it really survived the competition from cheaper air flights coupled with better cars. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/147 "2021-04-06T21:52:54Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The US interstate system probably supports 125+ mph better than the German autobahn. You obviously have not driven much of the US interstate system. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/148 "2021-04-06T21:53:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > {…} HSR’s competition for long distance travel isn’t cars, it’s aircraft. > > The problem with trains is that they only make sense for very specific regimes - places too close for air travel and too far for car travel. But as cars get better, and especially if they are automated, they will be used more for longer trips, narrowing the ‘window’ for trains. {…} And we should certainly give up on improvements to aircraft since flying cars are just a couple of decades away. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/149 "2021-04-06T21:53:55Z")
True, you are not only going to have to stop for pee breaks, but for recharging breaks on your 900 mile drive. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/150 "2021-04-06T21:55:59Z")
Actually a large percentage of the Interstate system does support high speed pretty well. (more like 100 mph though) The long East-West routes like 10, 70, 80 & 90 do for the bulk of their runs. Rt 1 & 95 absolutely do not, but mostly due to crowding. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/151 "2021-04-06T21:56:17Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Note that that’s minimum speed, but a road which can safely support speeds that are twice that will likely need an even smoother surface, and curves which are both more gradual and more banked, than what the current design standards support. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’ve got a car designed & built for the autobahn and I cannot safely drive it at those speeds on existing highways due to the fact that I would not be able to safely negotiate many of the curves built for speeds well below the 125mph you mentioned in your previous post. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not taxing on the roads, it’s that they were not built for that sort of speed. > > Sure, the straightaways may be good for some high speeds, and I’ll admit that back when I did the Cincinnati-Columbus drive twice a week, I went at around the speeds that we are talking about for portions of I-71. > > But I’ve done a lot of driving, and most interstates are not safe to drive at much more than the posted speeds. Even with computer control, the curves are just too sharp, the inclines and declines too great for 125+MPH. > > The also need to be in really good condition. Hitting breaks in pavement at 65mph is a bit jarring, hitting them at 125 could be catastrophic. > > So, we would really need to pretty much overhaul the majority of our interstate infrastructure, and spend far more on maintenance, in order to accomodate cars at such speeds. > > Also, what are we doing with the trucks? Are they sharing the interstate, are they traveling at the same speeds, or are they just going to be lumbering barricades that need to be navigated? If they are not sharing the same interstate infrastructure, then are we just building a whole new road network? > > I see a great use for electric self driving cars, and I can’t wait until we have them available. But they won’t replace the need for longer distance transit. > > Personally I think we should be investing _more_ into high speed mass transit. A maglev that crosses the country should be our Apollo project. Getting from NY to LA in 12 hours or less on a train would be a pretty nice piece of infrastructure. It should replace a fair amount of air travel, if it is considerably cheaper and more comfortable. All these arguments seem to imply that this proposal requires a constant speed of 125. They are outfitted with brakes and intelligence that can know what the upcoming road pattern is long before it can be seen by a human. Most of the open road highways in the rural spaces between cities can easily handle this speed…and then when they get to busier areas around cities they slow down. This argument feels like a major red herring. And if there are areas where an interstate needs to be straightened or flattened, we could do that a lot cheaper than building a massive railway network. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/152 "2021-04-06T22:00:00Z")
I tend to agree that the rail runs that make the most sense are the ones that turn an hour flying (plus the attendant wait times) or a fairly full day driving into a reasonable trip of three, four hours. As I said earlier, let’s say I want to go from Albuquerque to Denver. I can fly nonstop in about 90 minutes, but I’m still looking at some time at the airport. I can drive myself, which will take all day (call it eight hours) and at least two other stops, while hopefully timing it to not deal with Denver rush hour. I can ride the big grey dog for about that amount of time and maybe even break even on gas, though I’d have to rent a car after (which to be fair, I would have to do flying). What I can’t do is take the train to Denver without (and I swear I’m not making this up) going all the way to Galesburg, IL and then back to Denver, a full 48 hour trip assuming no delays. And as I said, there’s no connection to El Paso either. The three biggest cities along I-25 spread over 600 miles and roughly 4 million people (not counting those other cities that could be on the route or the possibility of travelers from Juarez) and it’s literally impossible to take a train in anything resembling a reasonable time. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/153 "2021-04-06T22:04:18Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > The Empire Builder (the route which runs from MSP to Portland and Seattle) is running on BNSF rails, I believe. True from SEA/PDX to the Mississippi River; from there to Chicago the rails are owned by the [Soo Line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soo_Line_Railroad) (the US subsidiary of Canadian Pacific). By contract, Amtrak trains are supposed to have priority during the block of time they’re scheduled to be on a particular segment. But once the train falls out of that block, all bets are off. And some lines just seem to thumb their collective nose at the contract, Union Pacific in particular: there’s a reason it’s called the Coast Star_late_. [Anecdote] I once went from Tacoma to Chicago via Portland (it was cheaper than leaving from Seattle). When I got to Portland I was informed that the westbound Empire Builder would be delayed because it had been hit by a car\* in North Dakota. It didn’t arrive until more than two hours after it was scheduled to turn around and head east; it departed almost five hours late. Given the circumstances, I consider it a minor miracle that it was only three hours late arriving in Chicago. [/Anecdote] \* Yes, I have that right: the train was already in the crossing when the car hit it. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/154 "2021-04-06T22:05:51Z")
That’s one of my favorite strategies in Ticket to Ride. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/155 "2021-04-06T22:07:52Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > All these arguments seem to imply that this proposal requires a constant speed of 125. They are outfitted with brakes and intelligence that can know what the upcoming road pattern is long before it can be seen by a human. While true, the more that a current highway isn’t a well-maintained flat straightaway, the slower that an autonomous car’s average speed along that highway will be (and, thus, the less attractive it’s going to be, compared to air or rail). > [@Omniscient](#): > > Most of the open road highways in the rural spaces between cities can easily handle this speed…and then when they get to busier areas around cities they slow down. This argument feels like a major red herring. And if there are areas where an interstate needs to be straightened or flattened, we could do that a lot cheaper than building a massive railway network. It’s not just “busier areas” – interstates also curve a lot, and have signficant grades, any time they pass through hilly or mountainous areas. Those would either have to (a) be substantally and expensively rebuilt to allow for substantially higher speeds (if it’s even possible), or (b) would be regions through which autonomous traffic probably couldn’t go much faster than cars can go today. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/156 "2021-04-06T22:09:44Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The US interstate system probably supports 125+ mph better than the German autobahn. [Here](https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0519251,-95.6689996,3a,75y,9.85h,88.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSjXmI7zZs5lzhiECN8xzcw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is a Google street view of Interstate-70/US-40/K-4 through the heart of downtown Topeka, Kansas, that is signposted for 45mph. The curve, built back in 1963, has been slated for realignment for at least 15 years that I can account for (probably more like 30), and there has never yet been enough money to build in a more gentle and better-banked curve that would not have a significantly higher than average accident incidence. The deck geometry is functionally obsolete, with the 2-foot-wide shoulders and the on-ramp with no merge area right on the curve adding special charm. Pretty much all metro areas with older sections of the interstate have similar features somewhere, stuff that they could get away with in 1963 but can’t in 2021, much less 2040. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/157 "2021-04-06T22:15:00Z")
Point taken about metro areas, but I think it’s unreasonable to assume that kind of travel speed through most metro areas to begin with. Most interstate traffic is highly local within a city, especially when it goes right through. If I could safely (which now includes things like my car and reaction time to unexpected things on the highway) do 100 on I-25 (and I’ve done 100, mostly by accident) except for where geography required slowing down to 75 or 65, I’d consider it good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/158 "2021-04-06T22:26:14Z")
There’s a lot of freeway in the US. I’d say blanket statements are probably not useful. Whatever solution we end up with will be a mix of approaches. One of the popular HSR proposals is around Chicago and the neighboring cities. The autonomous caravan from Chicago to St Louis and from Chicago to Milwaukee would be completely sufficient. I-55 from I-80 to St Louis and I-94 from say Lake-Cook to Milwaukee would both be entirely free of grades, curves and other problems once you clear the urban area. 100+ mph should be a piece of cake with the exception of a few bridges. There’s not enough demand for business or leisure travel between these cities to justify standing up HSR. I think this will be the case for a lot of these routes. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/159 "2021-04-06T22:33:55Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > One of the popular HSR proposals is around Chicago and the neighboring cities. The autonomous caravan from Chicago to St Louis and from Chicago to Milwaukee would be completely sufficient. I-55 from I-80 to St Louis and I-94 from say Lake-Cook to Milwaukee would both be entirely free of grades, curves and other problems once you clear the urban area. 100+ mph should be a piece of cake with the exception of a few bridges. Free of major grades, anyway, but yes, you’re right, those stretches are pretty flat, on the whole. Mostly, what I’ve been trying to point out here wasn’t meant to debate specifically with you, so much as to point out that @Sam_Stone’s dream of a 6-hour autonomous automobile drive replacing a 3-hour (or even a 2-hour) airline flight is really unrealistic, without a massive renovation of the Interstate system to allow the sorts of speeds that that would require (more like 150 or 200 mph). Could significant stretches of interstate highway safely support autonomous 100+mph traffic today? That seems likely, though significant stretches couldn’t, as well. Could much, if any, of the system safely support autonomous 150+mph traffic today? It seems very unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/160 "2021-04-06T22:36:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There is no reason someone should take train from NY to LA, unless they are terribly afraid of flying or want to sightsee. Especially as it costs about the same with 4 days vs. 4 hrs [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404.md?page=9)