# American High Speed Rail is a Terrible Idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404 "2021-04-04T21:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/161 "2021-04-06T22:47:55Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Too many Americans are not going to give up their ICE cars unless you can guarantee them an electric car that can take them to aunt Gurdy’s house 3,000 miles away on a single tank of electricity . . . despite the fact that they’ve only taken that trip once, to attend aunt Gurdy’s funeral 18 years ago and ignoring that no one in the family has needed to travel more than 100 miles in a single day since. Where do you live exactly that going more than 100 miles is uncommon? West of the Mississippi that’s not particularly uncommon. Here in Texas, pretty much anything outside of your immediate city is at least 45-50 miles away, and in most cases is closer to 100 or some multiple of that. Example- the Dallas/Houston/San Antonio triangle has legs of 240 miles (Dallas-Houston), 274 miles (Dallas-San Antonio), and about 200 miles (Houston-San Antonio). I’m all for electric cars, but I also think that they need to have a good range (~300 miles per charge, and not have huge charging times. It’s not unreasonable to expect to be able to drive from Dallas to Houston and back in one day without having to stay overnight to charge the car. An hour or so is reasonable, but past that, and people won’t willingly give up gasoline/diesel powered cars. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/162 "2021-04-06T22:53:04Z")
Perhaps I missed the broader discussion on that topic, but I agree it’s foolish to say simply that autonomous drives can replace plane rides. I think it’s quite reasonable to say that autonomous car rides can replace SOME plane rides. A flight to St Louis is ~75 minutes gate to gate. But when you factor in the commute to Midway or O’Hare and subsequent commute from Lambert, figure minimum 30 minutes on each end, and the airport security and “get their early just in case” for an extra ~60-75 minutes you’re looking at a total time investment of 3.5 hrs minimum. An autonomous car ride in a dedicated lane would pretty easily beat that time straight up if you’re topping 100 mph, it would be cheaper and it would be entirely on your own schedule. Way less stress and you could bring 4 friends. Same math would work in a lot of places. I don’t see Chicago to LA or NY to Miami happening of course. I’m convinced that this autonomous car caravan approach will eventually become the default travel mode for most of us in our lifetimes. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/163 "2021-04-06T22:54:43Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m all for electric cars, but I also think that they need to have a good range (~300 miles per charge, and not have huge charging times. It’s not unreasonable to expect to be able to drive from Dallas to Houston and back in one day without having to stay overnight to charge the car. An hour or so is reasonable, but past that, and people won’t willingly give up gasoline/diesel powered cars. You just described literally every Tesla available today. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/164 "2021-04-06T22:58:57Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Perhaps I missed the broader discussion on that topic, but I agree it’s foolish to say simply that autonomous drives can replace plane rides. For reference, from post 107: > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I did a LOT of business travel with a small team. usually four or five of us. We’d almost always fly, but if we had a self-driving bus that allowed us to keep working while we went in four comfortable seats with lap desks, it would have been better for the company and kore comfortable for us for any trip that we could take in less than a day. > > Because a 3-hour flight also includes a half hour drive to the airport, a two hour wait at the airport, the three hour flight, another half hour to wait for luggage and catch a cab, and then another half hour to,drive to the hotel. In other words, a full day of travel. > > If I could sit in a comfortable enclosed environment for six hours with a meal break, I’d much rather do that. And if the whole team travels in one of those and saves five airline tickets and allows us to get a full day’s work done on the trip, it’s a huge win for the company. When I pointed out that, to replace a 3-hour flight in a 6-hour drive, you’d be talking about a car being capable of driving well over 200mph, Sam said, “Okay, nit-picker. Call it a two hour flight.” Which would still require a car capable of at least 150mph. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/165 "2021-04-06T23:05:35Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Where do you live exactly that going more than 100 miles is uncommon? {…} New Jersey! I’m just betting that the average person in any part of the US isn’t taking 100 mile round trips to; get to work\*, take the kids to school, buy groceries, etc, normal everyday stuff. \*I know there are people with stupid long commutes but I just doubt they’re not outliers. A fast and dirty Google says, _According to ABC News, the average American drives **16 miles** to work each way …_ ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/166 "2021-04-06T23:06:37Z")
Having driven both US highways and the autobahn at length, believe me when I say the autobahn is infinitely more prepared for those kinds of speeds. Even the highways out west in the US, which have very high or no speed limits, still aren’t great for 125+. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/167 "2021-04-06T23:10:14Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > We’re worried about carbon being added to the atmosphere. And while I’m open to the idea that the cost of building the new rail infrastructure might be a poor long term investment both financially and in carbon emission reduction, we should focus the debate on carbon. “Carbon” is kind of a complex issue, though. In the OP’s premise and subsequent posts, he advocates self-driving EV limo service in lieu of more or faster rail. But shifting that load would require some non-small improvements to highway infrastructure that is far from carbon-neutral both in construction and in just lying there in the sun. And tires themselves produce a significant amount of particulate pollution (dust), considerably more than steel-on-steel (IIUC). Rails take up quite a bit less space than a highway and have less of an environmental footprint than pavement. The OP is indirectly advocating for the worse infrastructure approach, in the name of convenience. Convenience is wonderful for market-based solutions, but we may be reaching the point where we will have to jettison some of it just to keep above the hole in the seat in that shack outside. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > … trains don’t do hills … Well thank you for informing me of this. Ignorance fought. I guess I will have to figure out what those non-horizontal parts of the trips I have been on actually were. Illusions, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/168 "2021-04-06T23:18:18Z")
In fairness, trains really do struggle with any kind of grade. [Why Can’t Trains Go Uphill? Wait, Can Trains Go Uphill? How? (trainconductorhq.com)](https://www.trainconductorhq.com/can-trains-go-uphill/) ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/169 "2021-04-06T23:20:13Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Rails take up quite a bit less space than a highway and have less of an environmental footprint than pavement. The OP is indirectly advocating for the worse infrastructure approach, in the name of convenience. I think these statements are far more subjective than you imply. The highways are already there and we’re not removing them. They already require upkeep. It’s unknown how many additional lanes or reconstruction is required to support these autonomous vehicles. Some projections say that autonomous EVs could have 3X-4X increase in the efficiency of road use - basically eliminating the need for safe following distances and human factors that cause most congestion. So a mostly EV future could mean existing roads are mostly adequate. Trains are not flexible. People will not choose them en masse if they only serve a single point to point route. EVs can go anywhere. There’s no practical approach where can magically make people give up choice. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/170 "2021-04-06T23:20:21Z")
I’ve driven it quite a bit, actually. I’ve driven across the country multiple times. There are lots and lots of miles with straightaways and shallow curves. The biggest difference is that Germans know how to drive on fast roads; you better keep your slow ass in the right lane, even if you’re stuck behind a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/171 "2021-04-06T23:25:55Z")
There’s a similar curve in Providence, RI. The number of yellow signs posted along the curve almost hurts the eyes. The autobahn has similar, though. You can be hurtling along at 90 mph and two minutes later weaving slowly between 500-year-old houses. I think the speed limit is max 90 kph when going through all cities (which is how I got my speeding ticket). ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/172 "2021-04-06T23:35:04Z")
Are you talking about interstates? Or just highways in general? I don’t recall there being any interstates outside of cities that generally don’t support high speeds. Rt 95 south of NYC isn’t very good and I’m sure there are stretches here and there. I lived in Utah for a while and all the interstates supported high speeds, which the locals proved often. The biggest danger was people falling asleep. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/173 "2021-04-06T23:38:22Z")
> [@bump](#): > > without having to stay overnight to charge the car. Wait, what? You’re aware that there are faster ways to charge an electric car than a 110V outlet in your driveway, right? With current technology, a Tesla can put on 200-250 miles in one hour of charging at a Level 3 DC charger. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/174 "2021-04-06T23:39:40Z")
Interstates. Admittedly, most of my experience is in the eastern part of the US (draw a line up from Dallas and then take a right at any point), but in addition to interstates having curves that are too tight, road repair isn’t a top priority in this direction. I guess mileage may indeed vary out west. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/175 "2021-04-06T23:58:46Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I lived in Utah for a while and all the interstates supported high speeds, which the locals proved often. Most of the freeways, outside urban areas, in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming and Montana are marked 80. I was a bit startled on 84 just north of Utah to see a curve sign marked “speed 75”. I have done 90 on the state highway between Farson and Lander because Wyoming tends to mostly be a live-&-let-live place and the road, though it was approaching the divide, was straight. Still, those speeds are far below what the premise of a 2-hour flight vs a 6-hour drive would call for. And higher speeds do put more wear (from flex) on roads than lower speeds, not to mention more wear on batteries due to the increase in charge cycles and the extra stress that level-3 charging imposes. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/176 "2021-04-07T00:31:35Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Still, those speeds are far below what the premise of a 2-hour flight vs a 6-hour drive would call for. And higher speeds do put more wear (from flex) on roads than lower speeds, not to mention more wear on batteries due to the increase in charge cycles and the extra stress that level-3 charging imposes. Also, to be able to sustain 100+ mph speeds over long distances for large numbers of trips without littering roads with corpses, autonomous vehicles would have to be REALLY safe. More effective safety protocols, on the other hand, could noticeably [reduce average speed](https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/self-driving-vehicles-could-struggle-to-eliminate-most-crashes): > [@](#): > > Conventional thinking has it that self-driving vehicles could one day make crashes a thing of the past. The reality is not that simple. […] > > […] the Institute’s analysis suggests that only about a third of those crashes were the result of mistakes that automated vehicles would be expected to avoid simply because they have more accurate perception than human drivers and aren’t vulnerable to incapacitation. To avoid the other two-thirds, they would need to be specifically programmed to prioritize safety over speed and convenience. […] > > For self-driving vehicles to live up to their promise of eliminating most crashes, they will have to be designed to focus on safety rather than rider preference when those two are at odds. > > Self-driving vehicles will need not only to obey traffic laws but also to adapt to road conditions and implement driving strategies that account for uncertainty about what other road users will do, such as driving more slowly than a human driver would in areas with high pedestrian traffic or in low-visibility conditions. The faster a car is going, the less likely it is that its passengers will survive a crash. So if we’re expecting self-driving cars to replace air travel to a significant extent by providing extremely high-speed long-distance travel, there will have to be quite revolutionary improvements in the safety technology. ISTM that the situation is somewhat akin to the classic two-out-of-three options for “Good, Fast and Cheap”, where you can get any two but not all three. In the long-distance transit world, you’ve got, say, the five options of Speed, Safety, Economy, Convenience, and Capacity (i.e., the ability to shift large numbers of people on a routine basis). You can generally get three of those options together but struggle to add a fourth, and all five is an unrealistic expectation. Air travel, for example, is unparalleled for Speed and Safety on average, with some variable points for Capacity and Economy, but is highly inconvenient. The autonomous car wins on Convenience and (for those people who already own one at the time of their trip) Economy, but is low on Capacity and still quite an unknown quantity in the Speed/Safety trade-off. Trains provide Capacity, Economy and Safety, with variable potential for Speed, but low Convenience compared to personal cars. And so on; and that’s not even taking into account the Environmental Sustainability option. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/177 "2021-04-07T02:06:36Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Mostly, what I’ve been trying to point out here wasn’t meant to debate specifically with you, so much as to point out that @Sam_Stone’s dream of a 6-hour autonomous automobile drive replacing a 3-hour (or even a 2-hour) airline flight is really unrealistic, without a massive renovation of the Interstate system to allow the sorts of speeds that that would require (more like 150 or 200 mph). To be clear, you guys are making a mountain out of a poorly chosen example. Electric cars are not replacement for aircraft. The point I was clumsily trying to make is that if cars become autonomous, that will extend the distance people are willing to drive, or be driven. It will cut into the use case for trains at the lower end, just as the lowering price of air travel cut into trains on the high end. Train travel has been getting squeezed from both ends for a long time. Indon’t see much in the way of air travel cutting into trains on the long distance side (sorry, flying cars), but cars are another matter. But the biggest threat to trains might be telecommuting. As we grt more and more comfortable with remote meetings and working from home, the need for business travel will fall. That’s going to hurt every other transporation option. It already has. Now, some of that will come back after Covid, but a number of companies have already divested themselves of office space and have announced that work from home is permanent. And as we continue to tax fuel more, aircraft and train travel both will get more expensive, while at the same time high speed, low latency internet is becoming more widely available. Trains are old industrial tech in an electrified and digitized world. They are needed for freight for sure, and efficiency in freight is critical. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/178 "2021-04-07T02:22:33Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The point I was clumsily trying to make is that if cars become autonomous, that will extend the distance people are willing to drive, or be driven. That may well be, from the standpoint of auto travel being less stressful and attention-demanding than it is now. I’m not yet convinced that it will be tremendously _faster_ than human-controlled driving is now, without significant upgrades (and more regular maintenance) to major highways. Autonomous cars or not, we, as a country, have done a crap job of maintaining all of our transportation infrastructure over the past few decades, and that includes roads. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/179 "2021-04-07T02:25:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But the biggest threat to trains might be telecommuting. As we grt more and more comfortable with remote meetings and working from home, the need for business travel will fall. That’s going to hurt every other transporation option. It already has. It’s true that simply staying home is always going to be both the cheapest and the most environmentally friendly travel option. Where it will really have the biggest impact, environmentally speaking, is in enabling individuals to avoid owning underutilized cars in the first place. E.g., multi-person households being able to get by with just one car instead of two or three, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404/180 "2021-04-07T03:16:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The point I was clumsily trying to make is that if cars become autonomous, that will extend the distance people are willing to drive, or be driven. Maybe, but I don’t think it is anywhere near as clearcut as you seem to imagine. The freedom of being able to stand up, walk around, and take a restroom break whenever I feel like it, versus the freedom to do so when the autonomous car can find an opening at a highway rest area or other suitable venue, is a big deal to some of us. (You know, I assume, that the big open spaces out west where the cars can really move don’t have clean restrooms at every milepost.) Also remember that people don’t drive (or take trains/planes/buses/bicycles/etc) just for commuting to work. Visiting family/friends, shopping, getting health care, etc., actually add up to a lot more time and miles. For example, the [2017 National Household Travel Survey](https://www.bts.gov/statistical-products/surveys/national-household-travel-survey-daily-travel-quick-facts) reported just fifteen percent of daily trips were for commuting to work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-high-speed-rail-is-a-terrible-idea/939404.md?page=10)