# American Idol - Barry Manilow **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 20, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011 "2004-04-20T12:14:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/121 "2004-04-25T08:09:56Z")
That makes no sense whatsoever. Last week, Latoya and Fantasia were safe, with a “white guy who couldn’t sing” in getting eliminated. Did all of the racists wait until this week to start voting? ---
**Author:** ![Fenneth\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Fenneth\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenneth_Jr)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/122 "2004-04-25T10:27:42Z")
In my opinion, John Stevens is one of the poorer singers in a purely technical sense; but that is NOT what this conversation is about. He has a lot of things going for him, and I can understand people liking him and voting for him. Jennifer should not have been eliminated, but it had to happen sometime, the three of them are virtual clones. As for racism, that’s absoutely ridiculous. The record companies decided not to market Ruben because he’s black?! Please. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/123 "2004-04-25T14:19:02Z")
In a TV Guide interview, Simon said that Reuben had gotten winded just walking from the wings out to center stage, and that he was seriously concerned about the man’s health. It seems to me that poor health (and being so out of condition that a couple minutes of walking leaves you out of breath _is_ poor health, IMHO) would put all sorts of major drag on promoting someone as a singing superstar. You can’t do the ‘six radio interviews each day followed by a stage show then on to the next town’ type of tour with someone like that – you’d kill him. What are you going to do, wheel the man around in a wheelchair so he arrives with enough breath to speak or sing without gasping? Plop him immobile on a chair on stage before you raise the curtain? Actually, Reuben was pretty close to immobile during the show: stand in one place, stretch out right arm for a while, then stretch out left arm for a while, then right arm… To be sure, the rules aren’t as strict for male as female pop stars, but even so, the fans prefer to identify with (or fantasize about) someone vital and active and sexy. Hey, maybe the reason he’s somewhat out of sight is that he’s undergoing one of those ‘extreme makeovers’ – liposuction, a 1200 calorie/day diet, two hours of boot camp exercise every day… He’ll be back as a sexy slender stud come fall. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![annieclaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@annieclaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annieclaus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/124 "2004-04-25T15:52:51Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Hey, maybe the reason he’s somewhat out of sight is that he’s undergoing one of those ‘extreme makeovers’ – liposuction, a 1200 calorie/day diet, two hours of boot camp exercise every day… He’ll be back as a sexy slender stud come fall. 🙂 Ruben Studdard is on tour and I’ve heard that can be grueling. He was in Milwaukee on Easter Sunday night. Played to a great crowd and got excellent reviews. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/125 "2004-04-25T16:47:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Never seen NS. What is it they do differently? In Nashville Star, they only have one show a week, so the elimination and performance are condensed into an hour. Of course they do it differently. Everyone prepares their song for the week and then during the show they announce which person is safe, and they get to sing, and then the next person who is safe, and they get to sing. Basically the people who are cut have to wait until the end, when they are not picked to sing for that show. I like that way. Well, I also think Nashville Star’s performers have MUCH more talent than American Idol ones. Firstly, they can all play instruments; Secondly, there is no age limit, so many of the people have to been bouncing around Nashville and have just not been discovered; Thirdly, they have to be able to write their own songs; Finally, they just sing better. The winner last year, Buddy Jewel was 40ish years old and bounced around Nashville for years without success. The man had a great voice and great songwriting ability and became a big star after winning, with his CD coming out with big country hits. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/126 "2004-04-25T18:11:11Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > The racism claims are that the three African-American females were the bottom three because the Caucasian majority would rather vote for a white boy who can’t sing than see an African-American win. Which is utterly devoid of any factual basis, seeing as how **the majority of AI viewers are black** : > [@](#): > > [http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2003-04-15-black-white\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2003-04-15-black-white_x.htm) > > Music-based reality series are more popular among black viewers than white. Nearly 19% of black homes are watching American Idol on Tuesdays this season, compared with 11.5% of white homes, and Star Search shows a similar gap. And **skutir** , you’re wrong, but that’s ok, you’re as entitled to be wrong as you are to like John Stevens’s singing. Enjoy the show! ---
**Author:** ![annieclaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@annieclaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annieclaus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/127 "2004-04-25T18:18:38Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Which is utterly devoid of any factual basis, seeing as how **the majority of AI viewers are black** : That’s not what your cite said. Let’s do the math. The black population is a minority population in the US. Let’s say, for example, that the total black population is 300,000 in the US. (I know my figures are wrong, but I’m just doing a math example.) 20% of 300,000 wouild be 60,000 viewers. And let’s say that the non-black population is 700,000. (I’m giving a 30% black, 70% non-black ratio here.) 11% of 700,000 is 77,000. More non-black viewers. Percentages are often misleading! ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/128 "2004-04-25T18:25:09Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Which is utterly devoid of any factual basis, seeing as how **the majority of AI viewers are black** No, a higher percentage of black households are watching compared to white households. But since this country has several times more white households than black ones, the viewing majority is still white. Aaaaand, snce a preview just showed me that **annieclaus** is already making my point for me, I’ll just shut my mouth now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/129 "2004-04-25T18:40:36Z")
Well, a charge of racism is still a ridiculous claim, seeing as how we whiteys put 4 black people, 2 Polynesians and a Hispanic person in the finals in the first place, then promptly voted out 4 of the 5 white people right out of the gate. Not to mention putting 3 black people and only 1 white person in the final 4 last season, while putting a black man in the top spot. So there. 😛 😉 (Rassum Frassum Statistics.) ---
**Author:** ![annieclaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@annieclaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annieclaus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/130 "2004-04-25T18:44:37Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Well, a charge of racism is still a ridiculous claim, seeing as how we whiteys put 4 black people, 2 Polynesians and a Hispanic person in the finals in the first place, then promptly voted out 4 of the 5 white people right out of the gate. Not to mention putting 3 black people and only 1 white person in the final 4 last season, while putting a black man in the top spot. So there. 😛 😉 (Rassum Frassum Statistics.) I totally agree with you. . . but I think there are folks who will always charge Racism in a case where three white “less talented” singers receive more votes than four black “more talented” singers (assuming George was the guy in the middle of the voting last Tuesday.) Charging it doesn’t mean it’s true!!! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/131 "2004-04-25T19:23:53Z")
> [@annieclaus](#): > > I totally agree with you. . . but I think there are folks who will always charge Racism in a case where three white “less talented” singers receive more votes than four black “more talented” singers (assuming George was the guy in the middle of the voting last Tuesday.) Charging it doesn’t mean it’s true!!! Well, seeing as how “more talented” and “less talented” are just matters of opinion, not fact… 😉 And there’s no reason to assume that George was the middle vote-getter. Personally, I assumed he was actually the _top_ vote getter, and that’s why he was left as the only one who was assuredly safe over all the others. Of course we’ll never know for sure… until he wins, that is. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/132 "2004-04-25T21:18:38Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Which is utterly devoid of any factual basis, seeing as how **the majority of AI viewers are black** : > And **skutir** , you’re wrong, but that’s ok, you’re as entitled to be wrong as you are to like John Stevens’s singing. Enjoy the show! Is my wrongness just your opinion or a fact? ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/133 "2004-04-26T01:21:06Z")
Just to clarify-I think that the charges of racism are ridiculous and insulting to me personally. I vote for the singer I prefer, regardless of race. However, to be technically accurate, last year’s top four consisted of two Caucasian singers, one African-American singer, and one of mixed ancestry (Kim Locke). That is of course assuming that neither Josh Gracin or Clay Aiken considers himself African-American. I also see no evidence that Ruben has received inadequate promotion. Clay has become more successful because he has more fans and because his fans are more vocal (and some might say insane). They are marketed to different target markets, but Ruben has received a great deal of promotion and reports say that he is doing well on his tour and not having any obvious health problems with touring. My point was that no matter what happens on the show, there will be people crying racism; if an African-American does not win, it will be because the show is racist and when one did win but was eclipsed in popularity by the runner-up, it was also because the populace is racist. Unfortunately, racism has been so ingrained in our culture for so long, that it can be difficult for anybody to interpret any event without using that as a filter. That said, if the people prefer John Stevens and vote for John Stevens, then he deserves to win. If they buy William Hung’s album, they’ll buy anything anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/134 "2004-04-26T03:42:39Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > Well, yes. There are also right ways and wrong ways to write, to dance, to paint landscapes. And yet, there are people who, for a variety of reasons, do well by not doing things right. In my own ear, John’s voice quality is superb, in terms of timbre, pitch, modulation, and purity. Gosh, I just don’t understand why you’d say this. He has been off key _almost every night._ He was horribly off key doing “My Girl,” a song in which he quite literally did not hit a single note. In every other song so far he’s missed dozens of notes, save “King of the Road,” when he mixed it up a little by forgetting the words. There’s room for opinion in everything, but saying that a singer who can’t get through ANY song without blowing a bunch of notes has “perfect pitch” is absurd. “Perfect pitch” means your pitch is perfect, e.g. always right. His pitch is wrong with sub-karaoke frequency. Having actually listened to William Hung’s songs, I can say with absolutely sincerity that William has better pitch than John (though he’s worse in every other way.) ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/135 "2004-04-26T04:42:37Z")
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I came late to this year’s AI. I didn’t get to “know” any of the cast, since I didn’t see the auditions or earlier rounds or any of the biographical interviews. I don’t know their personalities or their past behavior in the contest. All I can go by is their voices and performing styles … and since I’m a former opera/musical theater performer, that’s usually all I care about anyway. 🙂 So how the HELL did all three of the best singers in the competition end up at the bottom? If forced to choose from the three, yeah, I guess Jennifer was the one to go, although her voice is excellent (if not very well-modulated, but she’s still young enough to learn dynamics). Fantasia and LaToya are more polished, true. But the real point is that we shouldn’t have _had_ to choose between those three until the second to last week of the contest! **How in the name of Randy Jackson’s former large intestine could Diana, Jasmine, or John have escaped the bottom three? HOW???** Okay, I actually thought Diana’s rendition of “One Voice” was quite moving. Jasmine wasn’t that bad, I guess … for Jasmine. But holy jeebus, John Stevens basically killed Barry Manilow’s dog. This is where I think I’m at a disadvantage because I missed all the auditions and personal profiles at the beginning of the season. Help me out here … did he blow the roof off singing some Dean Martin song at some point in this contest, a rendition that still echoes in the ears of his fans? Was he shown to be a really nice guy, someone who gives to charities and helps little old ladies and adopts wounded birds? Could his stellar personality and puppy dog eyes be coloring anyone’s opinions of his talent? I can say that he has a somewhat rich tone to his voice. Other than that, and an unusual preference for old standards in one so young (at least as evinced on Movie Theme Night), there’s nothing that stands out or makes him more than mediocre. I’ve heard dozens of John Stevens in my high school and college choirs. That’s why I’m shocked to discover that he has so many fans. After being underwhelmed on Motown night, I asked some of his fans what the hell was the big deal, and they said “oh, Motown wasn’t his thing – you just wait until Movie night! Or Elton John night! Or Barry Manilow night!” Well, I saw him lifelessly droning “As Time Goes By” while under-projecting and going flat or sharp every other phrase. Then I cringed during his attempt to squeeeek through “Crocodile Rock.” And in “Mandy,” he was again whiny, flat-toned and unemotional, with his usual shaky-notes-that-double-as-vibrato. Well, different strokes for different folks, that much is obvious. Honestly, I wouldn’t be as pissed off about his staying if he had at LEAST shown up in the bottom three. As it is, Jennifer was completely, totally robbed. I think 19 Entertainment is scamming us. They’re not using Diebold to count the votes, are they? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/136 "2004-04-26T12:24:10Z")
I liked John Stevens on Barry Manilow night more than I have _ever_ liked him, and it was because he sang the damn song as written instead of “trying to make it his own” or whatever the hell it is Paula says when they screw it up. I actually don’t like JS all that much, but I’m tempted to root for him to win this thing. I realized recently that if LaToya wins, as she should, there will be another melisma diva song on the radio. Same goes for Fantasia, Diana, etc. If JS wins, we might actually hear something with a different flavor. (Well, you know what I mean.) ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/137 "2004-04-26T12:49:31Z")
Actually, I’m so annoyed by the way the judges scolded us last week – How DARE we vote for the people we enjoyed, rather than who the judges thought was best? – I am way tempted to spend this week speed dialing Jasmine, Diana and John. And I’m a lazy sob who has never called in a single vote in any season. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/138 "2004-04-26T16:06:37Z")
> [@choie](#): > > This is where I think I’m at a disadvantage because I missed all the auditions and personal profiles at the beginning of the season. Help me out here … did he blow the roof off singing some Dean Martin song at some point in this contest, a rendition that still echoes in the ears of his fans? Actually, no. He’s been bad at every stage of the competition. During the Hollywood phase he forgot the words to a song and was generally as mediocre as he is now. He’s simply not a good singer in any respect; no projection, horrible pitch, no stage presence, forgets the lyrics. The effusive praise some people are giving him for no justifiable reason is, I think, an overreaction to the fact that he’s DIFFERENT. He’s coasted the entire way on sounding like Dean Martin instead of actually being a good singer; there has always been a palpable sense of “just wait 'til next week and he’s finally nail it.” He never has. But people want something “Different.” In fairness, I can understand this; the show has become a parade of people doing the Whitney Thing, screaming as loudly as they can with lots of melisma and vibrato to the latest soul-pop standard. The winner of AI1, Kelly Clarkson, is the worst in this regard; she shrieks every note, as if it’s a game of Show Off How Loud You Can Sing. It’s gotten boring. Hearing someone who takes a different approach than just Mariah Clone is relieving to say the least. The problem is that while I like a crooner as much as they next guy, it would be nice to hear a crooner who actually has skill. John Stevens sucks. He simply isn’t a skilled singer in any way; if you can’t sing in key, you can’t sing. If by some miracle he does make it to the top two, his fate will be far closer to that of Justin Guarini than it will be to Clay Aiken. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/139 "2004-04-26T16:38:59Z")
> [@choie](#): > > **How in the name of Randy Jackson’s former large intestine could Diana, Jasmine, or John have escaped the bottom three? HOW???** I think I may have ruptured my own large intestine stifling the guffaws at that line, which I will be using in AI-related conversation from now on. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011/140 "2004-04-26T18:55:57Z")
> [@Amanita](#): > > I think I may have ruptured my own large intestine stifling the guffaws at that line, which I will be using in AI-related conversation from now on. 😃 Hear, hear. Well, as to the guffaws-stifling, anyway. On another note, this thread appears to be sticking around. Should we extend it to cover this week’s show, or will a new thread be generated soon? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-idol-barry-manilow/241011.md?page=6)