# American logic and grammar **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 30, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076 "2015-09-30T20:30:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/1 "2015-09-30T20:30:53Z")
There’s this thing I hear from American TV often whereby someone says, when they mean that there is a variety within a group, something like “all cars are not blue”. By context it’s easy enough to see that what is meant is “some cars are blue, and some are not” But a British person would see that as “there are no blue cars within this set of cars”, and would rather say “not all cars are blue”, leaving the implication that some cars are for the listener to fill in. At least in my experience. Is it only me that sees this difference, and where does it come from ? USA “all cars are not blue” = some cars are not blue UK “all cars are not blue” = there are no blue cars Please correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/2 "2015-09-30T20:35:53Z")
Let’s move this over to IMHO. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/3 "2015-09-30T20:38:00Z")
It’s a question really. But I don’t mind ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/4 "2015-09-30T20:38:06Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > There’s this thing I hear from American TV often whereby someone says, when they mean that there is a variety within a group, something like “all cars are not blue”. I can’t say I’ve heard that as a typical thing. I think most Americans would say “Not all cars are blue.” > [@](#): > > Is it only me that sees this difference, and where does it come from ? > > USA “all cars are not blue” = some cars are not blue > UK “all cars are not blue” = there are no blue cars > > Please correct me if I’m wrong. I think you first need to establish this difference exists. I don’t think it does. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/5 "2015-09-30T20:39:31Z")
But this prompts an example - You would (possibly) say “all question forum threads are not questions” Whereas I would say “not all question forum threads are questions.” Or maybe not if you’re Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/6 "2015-09-30T20:40:06Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > It’s a question really. But I don’t mind At this point, the difference you perceive seems to be a personal opinion rather than based on actual evidence. Until it’s been established that the difference is real, IMHO is more appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/7 "2015-09-30T20:41:39Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > You would (possibly) say “all question forum threads are not questions” I would say “Not all question forum threads are questions.” The way you have it sounds awkward and wrong to me. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/8 "2015-09-30T20:44:13Z")
The first example that comes to mind is “All that is gold does not glitter” written by the english writer J.R.R Tolkien and unless I misunderstand is intended to mean “not all gold glitters” and not “gold never glitters”. ---
**Author:** ![SantaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@SantaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SantaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/9 "2015-09-30T20:45:11Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18251035&postcount=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18251035&postcount=3) I asked this a while back and got this response: > [@"All X is not Y" vs "Not all X is Y"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-x-is-not-y-vs-not-all-x-is-y/716399/3): > > In my Logic class, we had a chapter on formal Aristotelian Logic, with its “[Square of Opposition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_of_opposition)” (analysis of the forms “All X are Y”, “No X is Y”, “Some X are Y”, “Some X are not Y”). > > The phrasing “All X are not Y”, we were told, is a traditional phrasing that is an artifact of its literal translation from the original Greek (or Latin?) wording, where the phrase is not ambiguous as it is in English. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/10 "2015-09-30T20:46:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > At this point, the difference you perceive seems to be a personal opinion rather than based on actual evidence. Until it’s been established that the difference is real, IMHO is more appropriate. There are plenty examples online - I just google “all are not the same” > **[All lactase preparations are not the same: results of a prospective,...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8147360/)** > > In lactose-intolerant subjects, the available lactase preparations differ in their ability to improve both breath hydrogen excretion and symptoms. Lactrase may be the product of choice for achieving symptomatic improvement. “all lactase preparations are not the same” In the UK I would take that to mean that each lactase preparation is different from the others. But going by context I know it means there is a variation in lactase preparations, but not necessarily that they are all different from each other. Let’s wait for a Brit to confirm eh ? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/11 "2015-09-30T20:48:47Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The first example that comes to mind is “All that is gold does not glitter” written by the english writer J.R.R Tolkien and unless I misunderstand is intended to mean “not all gold glitters” and not “gold never glitters”. That’s an interesting example, because usually the phrase goes “all that glitters is not gold”. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/12 "2015-09-30T20:51:24Z")
> [@SantaMan](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18251035&postcount=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18251035&postcount=3) > I asked this a while back and got this response: That’s it. I knew it wasn’t just me. Thread can go back in Questions forum now 😛 Really the only time I hear it is from American film and TV, the Tolkein example is much less usual in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/13 "2015-09-30T20:53:32Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > That’s an interesting example, because usually the phrase goes “all that glitters is not gold”. Yes, and it is much older. Shakespeare used a variant “All that glisters is not gold”. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/14 "2015-09-30T20:57:49Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > There are plenty examples online - I just google “all are not the same” That provides no evidence that the usage is more prevalent in the US than in the UK. > [@](#): > > Let’s wait for a Brit to confirm eh ? If you’re not British, how are you an authority as to what it means in the UK?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/15 "2015-09-30T20:59:29Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > There are plenty examples online - I just google “all are not the same” > > [All lactase preparations are not the same: results of a prospective, randomized, placebo-controlled trial - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8147360) > > “all lactase preparations are not the same” > > In the UK I would take that to mean that each lactase preparation is different from the others. > > But going by context I know it means there is a variation in lactase preparations, but not necessarily that they are all different from each other. > > Let’s wait for a Brit to confirm eh ? “Same” is a different case than “blue.” Individual things are blue. Collections are the same. It only takes one thing in the group to be different in order for the collection to be called “not the same.” “All lactase preparations” circumscribes the group being discussed. “Not the same” describes how they are not uniform. Thus, if even one is different, “all lactase preparations are not the same.” Would you have your same interpretation if I said “All lactase preparations are not uniform” or “all…are not interchangeable”? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/16 "2015-09-30T21:00:30Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > That’s it. I knew it wasn’t just me. Thread can go back in Questions forum now 😛 The post doesn’t provide any evidence that the phrasing is more common in the US than the UK. > [@](#): > > Really the only time I hear it is from American film and TV, the Tolkein example is much less usual in my experience. In my experience, I don’t recall hearing it very commonly in any context. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/17 "2015-09-30T21:01:34Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Yes, and it is much older. Shakespeare used a variant “All that glisters is not gold”. Even better. But the only reason I notice it at all is that it stands out so much from my daily experience, and I have to figure it out for a little moment when I do, which is why I’m pretty sure there’s a national difference, generally speaking. All Americans don’t put the all before the not. Not all Americans put the all before the not. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/18 "2015-09-30T21:03:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The post doesn’t provide any evidence that the phrasing is more common in the US than the UK. > > In my experience, I don’t recall hearing it very commonly in any context. That’s why i was asking. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/19 "2015-09-30T21:05:49Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That provides no evidence that the usage is more prevalent in the US than in the UK. > > If you’re not British, how are you an authority as to what it means in the UK?:dubious: OK I’ll rephrase that, let’s wait for another Brit, in addition to myself, to confirm. Let’s also stipulate that said Brit is sound in mind and body, and has broad experience of conversational and electronically mediated language both native and originating in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076/20 "2015-09-30T21:19:39Z")
An even simpler example of ambiguity is the imperative _No smoking allowed._ Literally it should mean “you are permitted to not smoke” which is of course not the intended meaning. This is one case where the often-ambiguous Thai language gives better results; “Smoke not may” and “Not smoke may” are distinct sentences with very different meanings. (Another valid sentence is “Not smoke not may” meaning that smoking is required!) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-logic-and-grammar/733076.md?page=2)