# American media & businesses say, "Jesus Who?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 10, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225 "2003-12-10T23:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/61 "2003-12-11T12:37:48Z")
**MrV:** \*If you don’t want secular people celebrating in secular ways, then start lobbying to have its status as a national holiday revoked. \* Hear, hear! No fair saying that Christmas should be recognized as a holiday in secular contexts (including having public decorations paid for with taxpayer money, as well as being a national day off) but shouldn’t be treated as a secular holiday. That is known as trying to have your fruitcake and eat it too And don’t forget that we say “holidays” partly because the “winter holiday season” traditionally also includes New Year’s, which is a much more universal and non-controversial holiday (and has often been a prime occasion for gift-giving even within Christian societies). As we join **Belrix** ’s crusade to remove Christmas from the list of official government holidays, I move that we lobby to replace it with an extra day off at New Year’s. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/62 "2003-12-11T12:42:41Z")
That would need to be _two_ extra days off at New Years. (Hi, **Kimstu**!) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/63 "2003-12-11T14:36:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I find the entire notion of a “black American culture” to be divisive and seperatist. I challenge you to find one cultural aspect shared by all black people in America. I bet you can’t. There’s no more a definitive “black” culture than there is a “white” culture. Now I’m sure you can point to plenty of mostly black subcultures, but how many of those really hinge on skin color rather than geography or economic class? So black people are exactly like white people now? Both groups have the same names, eat the same foods, go to the same churches, wear the same clothes, speak the same language, read the same things, and entertain themselves the same way? Black people are just white people with tans? If you believe this foolishness, then you _must_ believe that there is no “Jewish culture” or no “Southern culture” or no “Italian-American culture”. If you don’t, please explain to me why these things aren’t divisive but for some reason, the culture developed by black Americans is. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/64 "2003-12-11T14:50:23Z")
Scrooge going to church has been shown, to the best of my knowledge, in only one version of A Christmas Carol- THE MOST RECENT ONE MADE!!! (and among the best) - the Patrick Stewart TNT version! (And it’s kinda funny- he comes in, with top hat on- an usher points to his hat, Scrooge tips his hat, THEN realizes what the usher means & takes it off, then sings rather cautiously, then quite lustily- what else?- God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen.) I think the Alistair Sim & maybe the Reginal Owen ones have Bob & Tim Cratchit in church. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/65 "2003-12-11T15:03:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\*The spirit of Christmas is not about what you can make other people do. If you want to “put the Christ back in Christmas,” then take charge and become the message yourself. Work on a soup line. Participate in Toys for Tots. Visit a children’s hospital. Organize Carolers. Sing at a nursing home or for assisted care living. Or just go and talk to the people there. Just ask them about what Christmases were like when they were children. _Make_ gifts instead of buying them. Or ask people to donate to a charity instead of giving you a gift. The possibilities are endless! \*\* Yeah . . . waht Zoe said. Nobody can take the Christ out of _your_ Christmas, **belrix**. You do that to yourself by obsessing on the secular world’s enthusiasm for commerce, glitz, and excess. Wretched excess. Lovely, wonderful, joyous excess. I love the lights. Love the shopping, the frenzied crowds, the plastic gee-gaws and tacky decorations. Love 'em. Love the whole damned overblown crazy season. And I love being in Church at midnight on the 24th singing “Silent Night”. Makes me cry, every time. Love being reminded that God approached us in the guise of a child, open, giving without reservation, accepting everyone he met in all their glorious sinful humainty. Love being reminded that Christ is present, in a real and literal sense, whenever people gather together in his name, in reverence and quiet awe. The secular world will always want to play in your garden, and it’ll look like they’ve “taken over”. But keep in mind that only you rule your heart, and you can choose who to let in, and who to keep out. Let the world have its Giftmas; it’s a lot of fun. Keep Christmas, and you’ll find the rest is just noise, light, and bustle. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/66 "2003-12-11T15:03:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Belix_ > Just don’t celebrate Christmas with one eye closed so you can pretend that this isn’t supposed to be about Christ. > > LeeshaJoy, I’m not trying to force you to Celebrate Christmas. Celebrate anything you want. Just if we’re talking about December 25th, we’re talking about a Christian Holiday. If we’re going to celebrate something on the 25th, let’s get the what we’re celebrating about right. > \*\* These two comments seem mutually exclusive to me. What exactly would be “celebrateing right”? You are aware, as subtlely mentioned by several posters, that Christmas is actually a hijack of older Pagan holidays. [The Master Speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_034b.html) > [@](#): > > **According to the most tenable hypothesis, Christ’s birthday was assigned to the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian) because the date had a ready-made pagan holiday, the “Birthday of the Invincible Sun” (or “ancient Saturnalia debauch,” as you put it).** [Various](http://www.holidays.net/christmas/story.htm) [accounts](http://www.christmas-time.com/cp-hist.html) [of the History](http://www.didyouknow.cd/xmas/xmashistory.htm) [of Christmas](http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_sel.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/67 "2003-12-11T15:08:22Z")
**Belrix** , sorry 'bout the missing “r”. I even previewed twice! Caught the coding muck ups but not the spelling. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/68 "2003-12-11T15:20:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Belrix \* > \*\*It’s easy game and fun for all to bash fundemental Christians. Try to find a Christian character on television that isn’t the target of ridicule (Ned Flanders). The supposed religious programming like the insipid “Touched by an Angel” and “Joan of Arcadia” talk lots about God but rarely to not-at-all about Jesus. \*\* Please review these statements of yours, and ask yourself if they reveal anything about your Christian bias. You started out by referring to the “bashing” of fundamentalist Christians, and cited the “ridicule” of Ned Flanders and the absence of Jesus in quasi-religious primetime television dramas as examples. This suggests, to me, that you think “bashing and ridicule” are on the same level as failing to acknowledge that Jesus is the savior. Do you? If so, can you see how deep-rooted, possibly unconscious biases can color your perception of the way this season is celebrated by mainstream America? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Interrobang!? \* > \*\* I’ll put Christ back in Christmas when you put Thor back in Thursday. > > Deal?\*\* You rule. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/69 "2003-12-11T15:41:03Z")
Now lets turn to page 12 in our song book… Thump the bible, Haleluiah!!! Thump the bible, Haleluiah!!! Thump the bible, Haleluiah!!! I’m Holier than You!!! Waaaah-Hoooo!!! ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/70 "2003-12-11T16:21:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Belrix \* > **Sorry for the late-evening reply. I’ve been at Church, LunaSea for the past 5 hours rehearsing the Christmas play. It’s been my primary activity for past three weeks. I’m a member of my church’s choir and attend as regularily as a man with very young children seems to allow.** Well didn’t you get enough Christ time there? And why does everyone else have to celebrate why and how you do? Last time I checked this was America, and you aren’t Oliver Cromwell. > [@](#): > > **Other holidays, regardless of religion, have their names and their reasons - let’s just be clear about this one - I’m pretty clear on the reasons for the others.** So I expect you to be putting Saint Patrick back in St Patrick’s day then? And Saint Valentine in St Valentine’s day? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/71 "2003-12-11T16:54:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally psoted by Belrix_ > **Diogenes, Your comments show partially why Pat Robertson is a bit paranoid. It’s easy game and fun for all to bash fundemental Christians. Try to find a Christian character on television that isn’t the target of ridicule (Ned Flanders). > The supposed religious programming like the insipid “Touched by an Angel” and “Joan of Arcadia” talk lots about God but rarely to not-at-all about Jesus.** Have you ever seen George W. Bush give a speech? He can’t talk about the weather without praising Jesus. Do you ever see a Muslim who isn’t portrayed as a zealot or a terrorist? Do you ever see a Buddhist at all? The media is very pro-faith and pro-Christian because that’s the majority of its audience. How many Christmas specials are shown on televison every year compared to Hannukah specials? Have you ever even _seen_ a television special about any non-Christian religious holiday? i don’t actually understand your point about religious shows that don’t talk about Jesus. So what? They’re not supposed to be aboutJesus they’re supposed to be about a more generic God. What would be the point of inserting an exclusionary message into a program whose sole purpose is to attract viewers to watch commercials. If the networks were to promote a specifically Christian message in this shows they would be cutting their own throats by turning off non-Christin viewers. BTW, those shows don’t say anything about Mohammed or the Talmud either. Does that make them anti-Muslim or anti-Christian? > [@](#): > > **My rant, though, isn’t about this - it’s about the fact that a Christian Holiday called Christmas is having Christ stripped from it.** Well we have different definitions for what a “fact” is. Christmas is _not_ a Christian holiday. It’s a winter celebration which has existed for thousands of years. The fact that some Christians have incorporated it into their own religious calndar does not mean that anyone else has to acknowledge it as religious in any way. > [@](#): > > **If we need a secular gift giving Holiday, then make one - call it Festivus and put it in August which, in my opinion, is a boring month. Just don’t celebrate Christmas with one eye closed so you can pretend that this isn’t supposed to be about Christ.** It isn’t “supposed” to be about anything. I can celebrate the hair on my ass that day if I want to. You don’t own the holiday. In fact, i don’t see why Chjristians want to fuck up a perfectly good winter solstice celebration by polluting it with a bunch of tiresome, preachy religious significance. If Christians want a day to celebrate the mythical birth of their God let them do it in February. Nobody cares about February. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/72 "2003-12-11T16:54:50Z")
Well, most of the Black people I know are good Christians who don’t celebrate Kwanzaa because it’s pagan. AND “made-up.” ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/73 "2003-12-11T16:56:23Z")
**Belrix** : I think it would be interesting if you responded to some posters here who asked you to imagine if you were a Christian living in a Muslim-majority nation. Would you be at all interested in people who wanted to put Allah back in Ramadan? Or would you feel it to be an effort to shove a religion you have no part in down your throat? Besides, as many have pointed out, Christmas is returning to that from whence it came: A non-Christian holday celebrated by diverse groups for diverse reasons. It can be called anything (and usually is), and there is no `right’ way to celebrate it. If you want to sing the most religious carols and recite the 23rd Psalm and so forth, go and do it in peace. Do not, however, imagine for an instant that you are any more correct than I. And, finally, this caught my eye: > [@](#): > > [Regarding Kwanzaa:] Personally, though, after reading about the founder’s penchant for torture, it seems a bit like celebrating a holiday created by Charles Manson. Remember: Christ had a Family, and he was considered rather extreme by the people in charge in his day. If I were you, I’d be a bit more circumspect in comparing the religious figures of others to criminals and lunatics. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/74 "2003-12-11T16:58:43Z")
Christmas is _also_ pagan and made-up. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/75 "2003-12-11T17:11:10Z")
Sorry for the mixup on the origin of the dratted “X” - it’s been a loooooong time since I read that snopes article. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/76 "2003-12-11T17:25:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not trying to force you to Celebrate Christmas. Celebrate anything you want. Just if we’re talking about December 25th, we’re talking about a Christian Holiday. If we’re going to celebrate something on the 25th, let’s get the what we’re celebrating about right. I’m celebrating **Sexmas** on December 25 because that’s the day my husband gets off of work, and it’s hard to celebrate **Sexmas** by yourself. Hard, but not impossible. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/77 "2003-12-11T17:25:44Z")
**Belrix** , lay off the weed, son, it’s messin’ with your mind. Christ has not been stripped from Christmas. You just said that you were at your **church** rehearsing a **Christmas** play, which I assume has something to do with the birth of **Christ**. See, you have Christ in Christmas, after all! You can go to church, pray, read the bible, and do all the religiously significant acts you enjoy to your heart’s content. But that’s not enough for you. You want to make everybody else observe the holiday your way and do what you want them to. This is the chief reason I intensely dislike fundies–they’re essentially fascists at heart who cannot tolerate the idea that other people should be able to make their own choices in life. I will observe Christmas the way I choose, not the way you choose. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/78 "2003-12-11T17:26:41Z")
Rev. Lovejoy: “…He was working in the hearts of your friends and neighbors when they came to your aid, be they Christian, Jew or miscellaneous.” Apu: “Hindu! There are 700 million of us.” Rev. Lovejoy: “Aw, that’s super.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/79 "2003-12-11T17:33:08Z")
**dropzone** : > [@](#): > > Well, most of the Black people I know are good Christians who don’t celebrate Kwanzaa because it’s pagan. AND “made-up.” And Christmas _isn’t_ pagan? It isn’t “made-up”? The black people you know are idiots. Why don’t you educate them? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225/80 "2003-12-11T17:50:20Z")
(Namaste **xeno**!) I must say, though, much as I enjoy all the hoopla and whoopie of the secular Christmas, not to mention “Messiah” sings and other aspects of the religious Christmas that don’t require you to be a believer, I agree that the whole thing is maniacally overblown in America these days. Of course, since most of the US population (and hence most of its retailers, advertisers, and present-buyers) is Christian, the OP ought to be out convincing them to reform instead of coming here to bitch about how “evangelical atheists” might react. Personally, here in Jaipur I had all the “Christmas” I needed on Diwali, and I am quite enjoying the refreshing absence of the commercial Christmas blitz in a Hindu-dominated society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-media-businesses-say-jesus-who/218225.md?page=5)