# American missiles fired at Syria **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944 "2017-04-07T02:03:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/201 "2017-04-07T17:28:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I think our efforts would be better spent investigating Donald JOHN Trump. I mean, ‘JOHN’? Seriously? Obviously a pseudonym. WHAT IS HE HIDING? :dubious: Hypothetically speaking, of course, not pointing any fingers, he who hires a prostitute? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/202 "2017-04-07T17:30:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Would you feel it was a “Wag The Dog” antic if it had been a President Clinton ordering the strike? [She seems to be supportive of it](http://www.nbcnews.com/video/hillary-clinton-called-for-attack-on-syrian-airfields-hours-before-attack-on-syrian-airfield-915867203736). Personally, I don’t think Clinton45’s administration would be (or COULD be) this much of an embarrassment so it wouldn’t NEED a wag. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/203 "2017-04-07T17:33:09Z")
> [@Navy\_draftee](#): > > No, I believe if Barack HUSSEIN Obama’s mommy felt it was sooooo important for her little boy to have a MUSLIM name, the least I can do is put it in CAPS. You think Hussein is a Muslim name? :rolleyes Let me introduce you to _Rabbi_ Shelomo Bekhor _Hussein_ . Or Sadqa Hussein, who was a _dayan_, and _mohel_. and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/204 "2017-04-07T17:38:14Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I guess the Syrians are claiming there were [9 killed in the attack](http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/us-attacks-syria-live-updates/index.html)…4 of them children. _Disclaimer: I’m talking out my ass from a perception of some nebulous concept of “honor” on the part of the US…_ I don’t believe we, as a general rule, set out to target **people** in the course of international disputes (in the destruction of terrorist organizations, on the other hand…). The actual target here would have been the infrastructure that supposedly has been enabling Assad to carry out bombing of his citizens- in this case, the airfield from which these bombing campaigns were being launched. Provided the airfield has met with nearly total destruction, this strike was successful, with minimal loss of life. ---
**Author:** ![Navy\_draftee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ec9cab/32.png) [@Navy\_draftee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navy_draftee)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/205 "2017-04-07T17:40:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You think Hussein is a Muslim name? :rolleyes > > Let me introduce you to _Rabbi_ Shelomo Bekhor _Hussein_ . Or Sadqa Hussein, who was a _dayan_, and _mohel_. and so forth. Barack HUSSEIN Obama’s mommy sure didn’t give the name “HUSSEIN” to her little boy for any JEWISH reason.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/206 "2017-04-07T17:40:10Z")
> [@Navy\_draftee](#): > > No, I believe if Barack HUSSEIN Obama’s mommy felt it was sooooo important for her little boy to have a MUSLIM name, the least I can do is put it in CAPS. This is a warning for trolling. Knock off this bullshit. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Navy\_draftee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ec9cab/32.png) [@Navy\_draftee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navy_draftee)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/207 "2017-04-07T17:42:00Z")
Imagine voting for a US president during WWII who had a middle name of ADOLPH and was a German apologist . ---
**Author:** ![Navy\_draftee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ec9cab/32.png) [@Navy\_draftee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navy_draftee)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/208 "2017-04-07T17:43:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This is a warning for trolling. Knock off this bullshit. > > [/moderating] sorry, I’ll drop it but THEY asked why and I replied. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/209 "2017-04-07T17:44:06Z")
> [@Navy\_draftee](#): > > Imagine voting for a US president during WWII who had a middle name of ADOLPH and was a German apologist . Perhaps you didn’t see the previous warning - so I’ll give this a pass. Let me be clear, **Navy draftee** - you specifically, Drop this line of discussion about Obama, middle names, ethnicity of middle names, or any other related bullshit. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/210 "2017-04-07T17:49:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You think Hussein is a Muslim name? :rolleyes > > Let me introduce you to _Rabbi_ Shelomo Bekhor _Hussein_ . Or Sadqa Hussein, who was a _dayan_, and _mohel_. and so forth. It pretty much is a Muslim name though despite finding a couple of odd ones out. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/211 "2017-04-07T17:58:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 59 Tomahawks launched, and all we managed to kill were a handful of soldiers and civilians? > Was it a state holiday where almost everyone stayed home? Were these mini-tomahawks with the explosive power of a large firecracker? Were 99% of the soldiers wearing their bomb-proof undeerwear that day? > How the flying fuck do you throw 59 fucking Tomahawks at a military installation, and not manage to kill a fucking _minimum_ of one soldier per missile…unless that target has already been mostly evacuated? As others have said, this was an asset strike, not intended to kill any personnel. I’d be surprised if no Syrian personnel at all were killed, and it looks like a few died; but we took precautions precisely because we weren’t looking to kill a bunch of people. This is a very simple thing, we wanted to inflict costs on Assad for his behavior. I’ve been a major Trump critic from the beginning, but the reality is this is basically U.S. foreign policy 101. Obama was a departure from this way of thinking (and actually mostly in a bad way, we regressed significantly under Obama in terms of our global standing), while Trump is a pretty stupid guy I think he followed competent advice from McMaster and Mattis, who basically picked a very normal play out of the playbook. In the 1980s when one of our ships was sunk by an Iranian mine in the Persian Gulf, Reagan decided to retaliate by executing a strike on Iranian assets. Our forces issued warnings leading up to the strike and told all personnel in the area to evacuate, and then later did the strike. The concept was similar, countries don’t like having expensive shit blown up. Even just a few MiGs is big money for a relatively small country like Syria, and the supply depots, hangars and etc ‘aren’t nothing’ either. We’re basically trying to stake out a line in the sand where we say “if you cross over this line of acceptable behavior, we’re willing to make you suffer these costs.” The hope is that Assad will be deterred from using chemical weapons. I think it was a reasonable gambit. Keep in mind that Assad hasn’t really needed chemical weapons that much, I question why he uses them at all. If Trump uses this as a pretext for serious involvement (on the ground) in Syria, or as a reason to seriously pursue regime change, that would be a big problem. But if he’s just planning to do things like this to deter egregiously bad actions, that is basically SOP. Obama was the deviation here, not Trump. I mean even Hillary has advocated this–and more, she actually still advocates a “no fly” zone and destroying Assad’s air force, which is way more aggressive than what Trump has done here. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Third choice: If there was danger to the Russians because this particular target could bring them harm, and there was no way to warn the Russians to haul their personnel and equipment out of there without warning the Syrians to do the same, then in my opinion it is no longer a viable target and you should find another way to accomplish your stated goal without undermining yourself. If you are sending over 59 Tomahawk missiles to a single target, then the message is that you intend to do maximum damage-that old fashioned “shock and awe” in action. This is what makes me question both the intent and the ultimate result of this particular action. Nah, ~60 tomahawks isn’t that, for one the payload on a tomahawk is relatively small. When we invaded Iraq in 2003 we launched like 500 on day one, then followed up with major airstrikes. That’s what a shock and awe attack would look like. Aircraft carry much larger bombs, if we had say, launched cruise missiles to disable Syria’s Anti-Aircraft weaponry then bombed the air field with heavy bombs from planes it would’ve actually destroyed the runway and other such things–these larger explosive can literally leave craters in the runway. > [@XT](#): > > But, well, why? We hit the base where the planes that did the chemical attacks flew out of…why hit somewhere else?? We damaged the base, destroyed some planes and infrastructure, and we attempted to warn the Russians ahead of time so they could get out. We didn’t, in fact, do a ‘shock and awe’ response (surprisingly), even though we could have launched hundreds of tomahawks followed by airstrikes. Instead, it was a measured response who’s intent was, again surprisingly, not to do the maximum damage or cause the maximum casualties, but instead was crafted to send a message that such attacks won’t be tolerated in the future. Whether Prez Carrot Top actually follows through on that…well, who knows what the guy is going to do? But I am really not understanding your objections here. It seems to me that this was nearly optimal, from our perspective…was low risk, didn’t kill a lot of people, yet put Syria on notice and will at least make them more circumspect (and, basically, go back to killing their civilians the old fashioned way). I’m not hearing many if any of our allies objecting, even the Dems seems mainly on board so far. Yep, to be honest the West Wing explored this really way and in an accessible way for laymen. In Season 1, the President’s personal physician (who is a naval officer) is on a plane to the Middle East to do some charitable medical work abroad. I believe the plane was a private plane that also had some Israeli officials on it and etc; for reasons not delved into on the show, Syria shot the plane down killing everyone on board. When Bartlett meets with the Joint Chiefs, they come up with a plane to blow up Syrian intelligence centers, some communications depots, and some airfields. Jed is furious because he had a personal relationship with the dead doctor, and basically says these plans are bullshit and he wants something with meat. So it isn’t like he’s just “docking their allowance.” A few hours later they come back with a plan to blow up Syria’s main civilian air port, which would cause a massive humanitarian crisis and inflict huge chaos and costs on the Syrian state. In going over the extreme plan, Bartlet then realizes that going so far just isn’t possible. One of the key moments is when Bartlet asks “what is the virtue of a proportionate response?” particularly if the Syrians had already factored in it might happen. The CJCS just responds that “it isn’t virtuous, it’s all we have.” It’s such a good scene as it relates to this because it’s basically true, on some level Syria probably suspected there could be some level of response like this, because this is about “in line” with how the U.S. would traditionally respond to such a thing. I have to wonder if at least part of Syria’s motivation was to test Trump to see if things were going to be like they were under Obama, or if Trump would respond differently. Russia and Syria have to act butthurt over it, but I think both entities largely viewed this as a bit of gamesmanship in which they wanted to see how Trump would respond, now they know. I will give Trump credit when credit is do–he did good not to follow some of the more extreme plans I’ve heard other members of his administration were advocating. Like taking out the entire Syrian Air Force and implementing a No-Fly zone, those are such egregious acts of war that we’d be very entangled in the conflict at that point, with significantly greater chance of trouble with Russia. It’s also likely such a move would prolong the civil war. The reality is Assad is winning the war, for better or worse. He’s a monster, but so are most of his enemies. At least when he wins the shooting will stop. I wouldn’t want Trump to do anything that I think would prolong the war, but I’m fine with Trump reasserting our traditional position that we view international agreements (to which Syria is signatory) and norms about chemical weapons use as serious, and we will regard them differently from conventional attacks. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > So the first report indicates that some of the missiles might have missed the base and hit the town, and the second seems to indicate that much more people were killed than was initially reported unless the base was almost entirely deserted beforehand. The Pentagon and the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights are pretty reliable. Don’t even read Syrian Government or Russian reports on the strike, these are the same people who claim the chemical weapons attack was a leak from the insurgent’s chemical weapon factory that the regime destroyed, despite overwhelming and clear evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/212 "2017-04-07T18:06:44Z")
**Martin Hyde** , damage assessment since WW2 and since has been typically over optimistic as to damage inflicted on the enemy. The question is not their truthfulness, they might honestly believe what they are saying, the question is their accuracy, it’s very easy to look at a target being hit and see smoke and flames and think “yeah that’s destroyed” when in reality that is only superficial, and I am talking generally not specifics example of last night. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/213 "2017-04-07T18:14:25Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > **Martin Hyde** , damage assessment since WW2 and since has been typically over optimistic as to damage inflicted on the enemy. The question is not their truthfulness, they might honestly believe what they are saying, the question is their accuracy, it’s very easy to look at a target being hit and see smoke and flames and think “yeah that’s destroyed” when in reality that is only superficial, and I am talking generally not specifics example of last night. [This guy’s Twitter account](https://twitter.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/850390853336150017) seems to have the best imagery of the damage I’ve found yet. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/214 "2017-04-07T18:22:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [This guy’s Twitter account](https://twitter.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/850390853336150017) seems to have the best imagery of the damage I’ve found yet. Unfortunately(or fortunately) I can’t access Twitter at work. Brief description, please? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/215 "2017-04-07T18:23:07Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > we regressed significantly under Obama in terms of our global standing I see this a lot, but I’m not clear on what is its basis. I tend to think that it reflects the person’s own dislike of Obama, and them projecting that _other_ people _also_ think poorly of Obama, and therefore their opinion is justified. Double irony if the same person has also implied somewhere along the way; “we’re American, we don’t _have_ to care what the rest of the world thinks.” Got any evidence that world opinion of the U.S. fell under Obama? That it did so “significantly” ? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/216 "2017-04-07T18:24:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unfortunately(or fortunately) I can’t access Twitter at work. Brief description, please? There are some pictures showing where the strikes hit (and kind of showing how precise they were, which throws into question in my mind some of the claims of where others went). Here is one of the posts on damage: > [@](#): > > Qalaat Al Mudiq‏ @QalaatAlMudiq 1h1 hour ago > Replying to @QalaatAlMudiq > > #Shayrat Airbase: 44 targets hit by #US Tomahawks: > > - 15 Aircraft Shelters > - 10 Ammo depots > - 7 Fuel depots > - 7 Workshops > - 5 AA defenses ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/217 "2017-04-07T18:26:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I see this a lot, but I’m not clear on what is its basis. I tend to think that it reflects the person’s own dislike of Obama, and them projecting that _other_ people _also_ think poorly of Obama, and therefore their opinion is justified. > > Double irony if the same person has also implied somewhere along the way; “we’re American, we don’t _have_ to care what the rest of the world thinks.” > > Got any evidence that world opinion of the U.S. fell under Obama? That it did so “significantly” ? Not Martin, but ‘opinion’ does not equal ‘standing’. I think the US ‘opinion’ by the average European (or Canadian or most other western nations) was MUCH higher under Obama than Bush or Trump today. But standing? Yeah, I think I agree that the US’s standing among our allies slipped a bit under Obama. And, ETA, I voted for Obama and really liked him as our President…and would have voted for him for a 3rd term if he would have been able to run. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/218 "2017-04-07T18:27:03Z")
Russia did nothing. Doing nothing. Plausible conclusion: Putin has decided that a deal to exploit Russia Northern oil reserves is worth more than a naval base in Syria. A little cooperation at the right moment, those pesky sanctions are removed, and Putin makes a ton of money. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/219 "2017-04-07T18:30:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unfortunately(or fortunately) I can’t access Twitter at work. Brief description, please? There is an image of a couple of burned-up aircraft (look like SU-22 to me, but the damage is pretty severe, and I’m far from an expert) inside of “hardened aircraft shelters” with what appears to be holes punched in the roof (mangled rebar hanging down). Another image of a hardened aircraft shelter with smoke and fire coming out of it, and a third image of what looks like fuel tanks that were destroyed. Another couple of pictures with burned-up aircraft inside of shelters, and then some satellite photos showing quite a few smudge-looking burn marks, presumably where TLAMs impacted. The Tweeter gives this summary: > [@](#): > > 44 targets hit by #US Tomahawks: > > - 15 Aircraft Shelters > - 10 Ammo depots > - 7 Fuel depots > - 7 Workshops > - 5 AA defenses ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944/220 "2017-04-07T18:40:17Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > It’s a good thing that all of Syria’s chemical weapons were removed and destroyed. > > Wait…what?..:smack: Are you implying they couldn’t have gotten more? I’m theorizing that this is all a ploy to show Chairman Xi that Trump would do the same thing to North Korea if China doesn’t reel them in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-missiles-fired-at-syria/783944.md?page=12)