# American Muslim family kicked off AirTran flight for commenting on seat safety **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617 "2009-01-02T18:50:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/21 "2009-01-02T20:28:08Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > I think the better question is if the same thing had been said by someone who wasn’t obviously Muslim or suspiciously brown, would the reaction have been the same? Good point. I have a female coworker who’s Muslim (and of Indian descent) but doesn’t wear anything that would stereotypically identify her as such to an Average American - no head or other covering, wears stylish American clothing, perfect Midwestern-ish American accent, etc. She still gets extra hassle and frequent searches when flying. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/22 "2009-01-02T20:35:21Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > There were TWO air marshals on that flight? What are the odds? Those guys (and gals, I suppose) are spread so thin that most people will never have one on any flight they ever take… I’ve worked in commercial aviation for some time now, and every FAM I’ve seen has been with a partner. As I understand it, they’re scheduled to fly in pairs, but may fly solo if a partner is ill, or something of that nature. I’ve never seen a solo situation, though, but I suppose it’s possible. ETA: I was Googling to find out if this was SOP, and it seems a few places, [including this](http://www.homelandsecurity.org/bulletin/060203.htm), have noted that they usually travel in pairs. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/23 "2009-01-02T20:44:09Z")
What I can’t quite get straight is this … if it \*were \*a terrorist who was planning on blowing up the plane … why the hell would he care about the safest seat in the first place? I mean, what makes anyone with half-way critical thinking abilities think that \*that’s \*a statement a terrorist would make? Now if a lone Muslim man, with full religious regalia, boarded a plane and was sweating and fidgety and asked the flight attendant which row the fuel tanks were located beneath and this happened, there wouldn’t be as much outrage. But a group of people holding a conversation like any other group of people would and they get kicked out for it? Ridiculous. Should we expect an authorized list of subjects that Muslims can engage in while on a plane from Homeland Security? ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/24 "2009-01-02T20:45:21Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The USAirways flight they took cost them twice as much (and their schedule was messed up), so I don’t think they think they were done a service. Will AirTran compensate them for the additional cost? If AirTran offers to, it’ll likely be out of a PR-esque “we meant no harm, here’s a token of how very sorry we are plzdon’tsuethx.” I don’t know the details, but it seems odd that AirTran would refuse to rebook them, then offer them a refund and say they’re welcome to fly again. I can’t think of any good reason why they wouldn’t accomodate them immediately after the FBI cleared them. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/25 "2009-01-02T20:50:51Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > \ suspiciously brown \ Is that like “driving while black?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/26 "2009-01-02T20:59:43Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > I sincerely hope AirTran gets sued by these born-and-raised-in-the-USA Americans and have to pay out a few million bucks as a consequence. The whole story and the clear, despicable racism that precipitated it, turns my stomach. Don’t airlines usually get sued when there’s a terrorist attack? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/27 "2009-01-02T21:06:05Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Don’t airlines usually get sued when there’s a terrorist attack? Sure, but how is that relevant? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/28 "2009-01-02T21:07:19Z")
Colour me confused but whenever I’ve flown I’ve been given a ticket that tells me where I sit. I don’t get to pick and choose ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/29 "2009-01-02T21:08:30Z")
This pretty much disgusts me. I’d love to hear their excuse for not rebooking the family after the _freakin’ FBI_ cleared them and requested they get another flight. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/30 "2009-01-02T21:11:05Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Colour me confused but whenever I’ve flown I’ve been given a ticket that tells me where I sit. > > I don’t get to pick and choose In the States, on major airlines you can opt to change the seat you are assigned if other seats are available. (I’ve done this both online and with an agent.) One airline in particular, Southwest, is totally open seating. You sit wherever you please. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/31 "2009-01-02T21:11:09Z")
[AirTran says ‘oops, sorry?’](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/02/AR2009010201695.html) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/32 "2009-01-02T21:17:17Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Colour me confused but whenever I’ve flown I’ve been given a ticket that tells me where I sit. > > I don’t get to pick and choose On AirTran [you do.](http://www.airtran.com/faq/q/if_i_do_not_purchase_an_advance_seat_assignment_when_will_i_receive_my_seat_assignment.aspx?tt=Seat+Assignments&rt=index_faqs&nav_id=85) > [@](#): > > You will be able to select your seat upon check-in, even if you do not purchase a seat assignment in advance. You may select your seat prior to arriving at the airport by taking advantage of our online check-in system But this was just a discussion had while getting to their seats: > [@](#): > > “The conversation, as we were walking through the plane trying to find our seats, was just about where the safest place in an airplane is,” Sahin said. “We were (discussing whether it was safest to sit near) the wing, or the engine or the back or the front, but that’s it. We didn’t say anything else that would raise any suspicion.” > > The conversation did not contain the words “bomb,” “explosion,” “terror” or other words that might have aroused suspicion, Irfan said. > > “When we were talking, when we turned around, I noticed a couple of girls kind of snapped their heads,” said Sobia Ijaz, Irfan’s wife. “I kind of thought to myself, ‘Oh, you know, maybe they’re going to say something.’ It didn’t occur to me that they were going to make it such a big issue.” Maybe having chosen their seats had triggered the conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/33 "2009-01-02T21:21:20Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > I’ve worked in commercial aviation for some time now, and every FAM I’ve seen has been with a partner. As I understand it, they’re scheduled to fly in pairs, but may fly solo if a partner is ill, or something of that nature. I’ve never seen a solo situation, though, but I suppose it’s possible. > > ETA: I was Googling to find out if this was SOP, and it seems a few places, [including this](http://www.homelandsecurity.org/bulletin/060203.htm), have noted that they usually travel in pairs. Thank you- ignorance fought! Now that I think about it, it makes sense for them to travel in pairs. I’m still amazed that there happened to be a pair of them on this flight, though- aren’t there only a few thousand FAMs, and bazillions of domestic flights? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/34 "2009-01-02T21:31:31Z")
> [@brownie55](#): > > My bolding. > > Get real, everybody knows you ride in a train going to a concentration camp. Thats so last century , now we have Con Air to fly your felons, miscreants, and malefactors to incarceration. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/35 "2009-01-02T21:42:30Z")
Hello, overreaction. I’ve had similar conversations in Spanish on Southwest, and nothing like this has ever happened to me. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/36 "2009-01-02T21:43:51Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > I think that when uniformed security (or whoever) is removing you from the plane, it is institutionalized. The fact that random racists can have the system enforce their fears makes it so. .. Really? That meets your definition of institutionalized discrimination? The presence of a uniform? Sorry but I think that is just silly. Institutionalized discrimination makes discrimination as a matter of effective (if not official) policy. Institutional discrimination occurs systematically, not in just sporadic instances. Isolated individuals who work for the system, even if they are in uniforms, who go _against_ policy and use profiling by superficial appearances, do not constitute institutionalized discrimination. Meanwhile this family shows how people with class behave. I doubt I would stay as calm and civil as they appear to have been throughout the entire episode. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/37 "2009-01-02T21:50:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Institutionalized discrimination makes discrimination as a matter of effective (if not official) policy. Institutional discrimination occurs systematically, not in just sporadic instances. Isolated individuals who work for the system, even if they are in uniforms, who go _against_ policy and use profiling by superficial appearances, do not constitute institutionalized discrimination. You have a point, but so does **Peanut Gallery.** If the isolated individuals take it upon themselves to liberally interpret policy beyond the stated standard in order to express their own biases, _and the system fails to discipline or restrain them_, the actions of those individuals can be said to be seen as acceptable, implicitly, by their bureaucracy, and, thus, institutionalized. Now, if these uniformed knuckledraggers get smacked down hard (put on probation, retrained, disciplined, whatever), and some sort of Memorandum of Educational Reminder is officially distributed to their compatriots, then you could legitimately say that they are isolated individuals who do not express the official policy of their institution. But as it is, there’s lots of arguable gray area between the extremes, and that, I think, is what **Peanut Gallery** was quite reasonably suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/38 "2009-01-02T21:53:41Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > [AirTran says ‘oops, sorry?’](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/02/AR2009010201695.html) From Ferret Herder’s cite: > [@](#): > > Officials said several other passengers overheard the conversation and became alarmed when they heard Sahin remark that sitting near the engines would not be safe in the event of an accident or explosion. Irfan and Izaz said the remark was entirely misconstrued and that the conversation was nothing more than innocuous banter. Also, from the CNN cite: > [@](#): > > “When we were talking, when we turned around, I noticed a couple of girls kind of snapped their heads,” said Sobia Ijaz, Irfan’s wife. “I kind of thought to myself, ‘Oh, you know, maybe they’re going to say something.’ It didn’t occur to me that they were going to make it such a big issue.” Now, I know that the Muslim family said they did not use the word “explosion,” but apparently several other witnesses may have heard otherwise. I want to hear more of the details. It seems clear there was no real danger. That doesn’t mean anyone was unreasonable in being concerned in seeing someone dressed as they were and wondering what the safest place on the plane would be in the event of an explosion. Why exactly did Ijaz wonder if the girls were going to say something? Just how innocuous were their comments? I’d just like to hear more details before I conclude that anyone acted unreasonably–when the facts are in, that could well be the case. Again, I am not at all suggesting they were terrorists, nor would I suggest that anyone who looked like they did would naturally be a suspected terrorist. But I will say flat-out, if I heard a family, one who appeared as they did, wondering about the safest place on my flight should an explosion occur, I ABSOLUTELY would have alerted someone. If that makes me narrow-minded, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/39 "2009-01-02T21:58:40Z")
… It’s taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/40 "2009-01-02T21:58:51Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > But I will say flat-out, if I heard a family, one who appeared as they did, wondering about the safest place on my flight should an explosion occur, I ABSOLUTELY would have alerted someone. If that makes me narrow-minded, so be it. Yep, that makes you narrow minded, all right. ETA: **Cervaise** beat me to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617.md?page=3)