# American Muslim family kicked off AirTran flight for commenting on seat safety **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617 "2009-01-02T18:50:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/61 "2009-01-02T22:52:35Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Stratocaster** , let’s say we were seven years out from the Oklahoma bombing. Would you be disquieted if the white American, corn-fed looking family standing next to you during a tour of the White House started talking about explosions? > > Why or why not? It would depend upon whether or not their comments seemed innocuous, just as it would in this case. I don’t know how else to answer it. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/62 "2009-01-02T22:52:38Z")
> [@brownie55](#): > > Get real, everybody knows you ride in a train going to a concentration camp. Yeah, but at least you arrive on time. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/63 "2009-01-02T22:54:45Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Okay, at this point I’ll assume you simply can’t understand or refuse to acknowledge any further clarification and would much rather rant about people who blindly hate “scary brown guys.” Have fun. I’ve read your posts. You seem to think that your position is so new to the rest of us that we all need you to explain it to us in detail. But we’ve seen it before, with all of the same justifications and all of the same eyelash batting and double standards. In any case, you said that if it made you close-minded, so be it. It does, so, well, be it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/64 "2009-01-02T22:56:05Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’ve read your posts. You seem to think that your position is so new to the rest of us that we all need you to explain it to us in detail. But we’ve seen it before, with all of the same justifications and all of the same eyelash batting and double standards. > > In any case, you said that if it made you close-minded, so be it. It does, so, well, be it. Right, again, because you say so. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/65 "2009-01-02T22:56:07Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > … If the isolated individuals take it upon themselves to liberally interpret policy beyond the stated standard in order to express their own biases, _and the system fails to discipline or restrain them_, the actions of those individuals can be said to be seen as acceptable, implicitly, by their bureaucracy, and, thus, institutionalized. > > Now, if these uniformed knuckledraggers get smacked down hard (put on probation, retrained, disciplined, whatever), and some sort of Memorandum of Educational Reminder is officially distributed to their compatriots, then you could legitimately say that they are isolated individuals who do not express the official policy of their institution. > … I’ll grant this point and even more: the fact that “the airline”, meaning those empowered to represent the airline at a higher level, supported the decision to keep this family off of the airline even after the FBI assured them that there was no risk and requested reticketing the family, and only relented and offered apologies refunds etc. 24 hours or so later, after the incident received CNN level bad press, does bespeak to some level of accepting discrimination at an institutional level. So **peanut** I’ll grant you some level of schminstitutionalization but I will still differ with your last assessment: > [@](#): > > … the fact that the racists know they can complain about petty shit and know that ‘the system’, or whatever authority is present, will respond to their racism means something deeper is going on. > > Like I said before, I expect the flight attendant knew it was a bogus, racist complaint … My experience is that few racists would see themselves as that. Those who heard something as threatening because they see a Muslim appearing person as intrinsically more likely to be a terrorist than a June Cleaver appearing individual do not see themselves as racist or even discriminatory. To them that seems like commonsense. They don’t believe they have a racist bone in their bodies. And the flight attendant may have the same biases or not but a report of suspicious and threatening language gets a report to the security detail who must investigate. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/66 "2009-01-02T22:58:01Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > But an obvious family group herding three _young_ children down the aisles towards their assigned seats, talking _openly_ about the safest seats on a plane? C’mon, you kinda have to be a moron to misconstrue that. On the airlines part or the people who reported it, or both? If the comments truly were innocuous, I agree, the “reporters” overreacted. But what can the airline do at that point, other than investigate? That’s not to say that handled it well after the FBI cleared the family, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/67 "2009-01-02T22:58:14Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Right, again, because you say so. Got it. Absolutely! You have said nothing that anyone in this thread would ever in a million years take as even remotely bigoted. I simply announced that you were and voila! You are! The power I have, it’s astounding. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/68 "2009-01-02T22:59:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Absolutely! You have said nothing that anyone in this thread would ever in a million years take as even remotely bigoted. I simply announced that you were and voila! You are! > > The power I have, it’s astounding. It’s astounding, all right. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/69 "2009-01-02T23:01:10Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > C’mon, you kinda have to be a moron to misconstrue that. Or blinded by fear. But I’m betting moron. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/70 "2009-01-02T23:02:14Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I feel bad for him if people, without provocation or cause, treat him and his family as pariahs. And I’ll say yet again, perhaps that’s exactly what did occur. All I’m suggesting–and apparently this is just wild-eyed bigotry–is that a less-than-innocuous **comment about explosions on a plane** , coming from someone of Mideastern descent, is disquieting; and that I’d like to hear more details. And I honestly don’t believe anyone really thinks that’s so wild, at least when they’re not safely posting on a message board. Bolding added. Note that according to Atif Irfan, they never said the words “bomb” or “explosion”. They merely discussed where was the safest area to sit. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/71 "2009-01-02T23:04:20Z")
But those people, you know, people who look like that, they can’t expect to be treated like normal people. That’s insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/72 "2009-01-02T23:04:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Bolding added. Note that according to Atif Irfan, they never said the words “bomb” or “explosion”. They merely discussed where was the safest area to sit. Dewey, see the other cite from Ferret Herder (quoted in my first post). That one suggests that the witnesses heard differently. That was one of the reasons I said I’d like to hear more details. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/73 "2009-01-02T23:07:40Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > On the airlines part or the people who reported it, or both? > > If the comments truly were innocuous, I agree, the “reporters” overreacted. But what can the airline do at that point, other than investigate? That’s not to say that handled it well after the FBI cleared the family, BTW. The people who reported it firstly. As you said, once reported the airline was probably duty bound to investigate and under the circumstances ( air marshalls on board filing reports ) I can understand the captain’s decision. Though frankly if I were the captain, I’d have personally made a quick and discrete visual check. If the now seated group was acting like a normal family, I probably would have been inclined to dismiss it as hysteria. But I won’t come down too hard on his decision not to. But as you also said, the airlines then went on to bungle the aftermath. So both, in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/74 "2009-01-02T23:08:29Z")
> [@brownie55](#): > > Get real, everybody knows you ride in a train going to a concentration camp. And that you ride a bus to go to hell. (Is this seat taken?) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/75 "2009-01-02T23:16:56Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > On the airlines part or the people who reported it, or both? > > If the comments truly were innocuous, I agree, the “reporters” overreacted. But what can the airline do at that point, other than investigate? That’s not to say that handled it well after the FBI cleared the family, BTW. That’s the problem, they have to overreact and investigate. Only a fool puts power into the hands of a child. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/76 "2009-01-02T23:29:10Z")
Did I miss the part of the story where their skin color or dress was discussed? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/77 "2009-01-02T23:29:59Z")
When all is said and done, we still have this statement from an earlier cite that gives me hope. > [@](#): > > “We are proud Americans,” Sahin said. “You know we decided to have our children and raise them here. We can very easily go anywhere we want in the world, but you know we love it here and we’re not going to go away, no matter what.” ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/78 "2009-01-02T23:31:49Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > And that you ride a bus to go to hell. (Is this seat taken?) 😃 :dubious: I thought it was a [handbasket?](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/Kira74205/funny-pictures-kitten-handbasket1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/79 "2009-01-02T23:31:51Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > When all is said and done, we still have this statement from an earlier cite that gives me hope. Too bad those suspicious passengers couldn’t see his patriotism before they flagged down security. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/80 "2009-01-02T23:32:03Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Sorry, I’ll have to accept the horrible shame of being considered close-minded, I guess. To me, it is self-evident why someone of Mideastern descent wondering aloud about where the safest place to be on the plane should an explosion occur is cause for at least “let’s make sure this isn’t a problem” concern, depending upon the nature of the comments. Altogether too reasonable for some members of your “omigod Amerikans so panicky racist stoopid” audience here. Let’s remember that making casual comments about explosions or weapons while flying has gotten some **lily-white Caucasian** members of the flying public in trouble before. Whether anyone in _this_ family actually mentioned explosion is another matter, and AirTran does owe them an apology and compensation for not rebooking them as soon as the F.B.I. cleared them.\* I have been treated to a full pat-down and luggage search at the preboarding security checkpoint, and I do not look Middle Eastern. I do have a beard, though. :eek: \*if you’re a would-be bomber into martyrdom for Allah, don’t you want the _least safe_ seat on the plane? \*\*as for someone behaving dumbly meaning they’re harmless, being a terrorist does not imply that you’re Brainiac (remembering Richard Reed, the attempted shoe-bomber, who’s responsible for all of us having to take off and put our shoes back on every time we board a goddamn plane, may he rot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617.md?page=5)