# American Muslim family kicked off AirTran flight for commenting on seat safety **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617 "2009-01-02T18:50:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/141 "2009-01-04T06:33:15Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > But I will say flat-out, if I heard a family, one who appeared as they did, wondering about the safest place on my flight should an explosion occur, I ABSOLUTELY would have alerted someone. If that makes me narrow-minded, so be it. I’m not sure narrow-minded is quite right. I think cowardly is a better description. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/142 "2009-01-04T06:46:51Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > But the trigger in any event were the unpleasant fellows flying planes into buildings and trying to explode their shoes in flight You realise that the [shoe bomber](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_(shoe_bomber)) had a vanilla white English mother and a Jamaican father? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/143 "2009-01-04T08:11:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In **Strat’s** defense, he was saying that the “misbehavior” of the **9/11 hijackers** has created the need (in Strat’s opinion) for this kind of paranoid scrutiny and overreaction. I don’t agree with him, but his use of the word “misbehavior” referred to 9/11, not to this family. Ahh I misunderstood then. Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/144 "2009-01-04T08:15:25Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > How about the white guy who committed the Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 and injured hundreds more? Not an airplane-related terrorist act, granted, but why don’t we hear stories about white folk being detained and questioned for talking about the safest way to transport fertilizer? Are you being serious? Does this come up much? You think fertilizer transportation safety discussion is getting a free pass, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/145 "2009-01-04T08:16:45Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > I’m not sure narrow-minded is quite right. I think cowardly is a better description. Unlike brave guys like you, here in message board land. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/146 "2009-01-04T08:30:48Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > And while I understand you feel you’ve given up a little freedom for your safety, I don’t think the freedoms that Muslims have lost in this country can really compare. You might have to take your shoes off at the airport now, but you don’t have to endure discrimination because you talk with a funny accent or are a suspicious shade of brown. In the days immediately following 9/11, my college dorm-mate could not worship in her mosque because there were threats against the lives of anyone who showed up there. While things may have calmed down a bit, this kind of irrational fear, discrimination, and harassment is still pervasive today. Are we talking past each other, perhaps? It’s clear we’re in disagreement over what constitutes concern enough to alert someone, though I do appreciate your acknowledgement that visual prompts can be quite visceral. I disagree, as I’m sure you already suspected, re: the hypothetical biker as well. At some point, the practical demands action over what I concede are real, though not absolute, rights. I consider us responsible to each other as well–should a building blow up, I’m not the only in danger. But I fully agree that the sort of discrimination you describe here in this last paragraph is reprehensible. Your college dorm-mate was treated badly, and there’s no excuse or reason for that. I just don’t see how we _must_ either always consider someone’s background and heritage, regardless of circumstance, or never do so. I don’t think those are the two choices. I’d still suggest that someone of obvious Islamic background speculating about explosions on a plane (again, depending upon the nature of the comments) is a circumstance unto itself. I know we disagree on that, but we have no disagreement that the animus you describe toward Muslims is simply wrong. Thanks for your response, I appreciate you took the time. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/147 "2009-01-04T08:31:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In **Strat’s** defense, he was saying that the “misbehavior” of the **9/11 hijackers** has created the need (in Strat’s opinion) for this kind of paranoid scrutiny and overreaction. I don’t agree with him, but his use of the word “misbehavior” referred to 9/11, not to this family. Yes, thanks, Diogenes. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/148 "2009-01-04T08:40:10Z")
> [@Rachael\_Rage](#): > > The post-9/11 climate of fear and paranoia made us feel vulnerable, so we put our hand lotion in ziploc bags and take off our shoes and give swarthy folks the stink-eye because we think it makes it safer. Does it? Probably not, but some may feel more “secure.” You know what would make me feel “secure?” An airline that wasn’t going bankrupt, and an airport where the air traffic controllers weren’t overworked and underpaid. I don’t blame the Muslims - radical or not - for that. Frankly, as someone who travels a lot for business, I’ll tell you that I agree that much of the alleged safety measures feel like nonsense to me, that they are mirages, pointless bureaucracy to create a sense of security. But that doesn’t mean that ANY scrutiny or action is pointless. I’m not suggesting we give swarthy folks the stink eye, though I realize that’s become a convenient straw man to chuck rocks at in this thread. I have suggested I wanted more details on this case, given witnesses’ allegations that people of Islamic backgrounds were discussing where they should sit should there be an explosion on the plane on that flight. I honestly don’t think there’s a single person posting in this thread, with all the butter-wouldn’t-melt-in-their-mouths outrage being expressed, who doesn’t know _exactly_ why that is at least possibly (again, depending upon the details) a situation to mention to someone in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/149 "2009-01-04T08:52:14Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > You realise that the [shoe bomber](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_(shoe_bomber)) had a vanilla white English mother and a Jamaican father? That’s the Ward Cleaver type everyone’s been referencing, eh? That guy? 😃 My point was that it is not a fear made from whole cloth that _some_ Islamic fundamentalists have committed or attempted to commit acts of terror, this lunatic member of al-Qaeda included. IOW, if someone is asking why a situation _today_ on an airplane that clearly involves people of Islamic background–like this one–could _possibly_ be a cause for alarm, the shoe bomber is further evidence. I was not suggesting this nutjob was analogous to this family in any other way. I was responding to jsgoddess’s shock–shock, I tell you!–that we excuse the horrors committed by white-bread Christian types on planes, villains like me who are clearly cause for similar alarm. If you place Reid in that same category, okee-dokee. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/150 "2009-01-04T14:35:59Z")
The 9/11 hijackers weren’t dressed in Muslim garb. They were dressed like young college guys. I recommend we profile against young college guys. If they’re not up to one kind of trouble, they’re up to another. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/151 "2009-01-04T14:54:32Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > The 9/11 hijackers weren’t dressed in Muslim garb. They were dressed like young college guys. But they were Muslim, and that was (for them, not for most Muslims) the foundation of their evil acts. If your argument is that a real terrorist wouldn’t draw attention to his religion, there’s a logic to that. But that doesn’t mean we don’t know someone is Muslim in another circumstance, even if we may not have recognized it then. I’m not aware of any young college guys who, by nature of belonging to that group, committed acts of atrocity that make me nervous when I see them on a plane. So if you want to profile based on what was essentially a disguise, you’re missing the point. I’ll go back to my biker hypothetical, since it was so popular based on all the responses to it. If a biker shaved, showered, put on a suit, and then planted a bomb, we’d be right in saying, “Who knew when that guy walked in?” That doesn’t mean the next time we see a biker type, he’s not, well, a biker; nor does it mean that bikers didn’t act in a manner recently that makes them cause for concern if they again behave in a way that seems alarming. (Again, I’ll point out that I have not concluded that’s what occurred here–this family may well have behaved in an innocuous manner, in which case, they had every right to expect to be left alone.) ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/152 "2009-01-04T16:02:44Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Are you being serious? Does this come up much? You think fertilizer transportation safety discussion is getting a free pass, do you? But do white guys in trucks get pulled over at random all the time because they’re a white guy in a truck? Do people pulled up at a stoplight next to a white guy in a truck call 911 to report it to the cops ‘cause there’s a suspicious white guy driving a truck and, y’know, there was that white guy who blew up a truck that one time, and it never hurts to be cautious, y’know? Do white guys in trucks get stopped, held for questioning for hours, and then released with no charges, no explanation and no apology after the background checks come out clean? Do you EVER hear of incidents like that? Of course not, and that’s the point here - two white guys’ plot to blow up a truck has not managed to taint everybody’s impressions of whether a random white guy is dangerous when he’s driving a truck, but somehow 9/11 means that ALL brown guys on a plane are suspicious and should be checked out, and that’s “regrettable but hey, that’s the world we now live in.” THAT’s where the racism accusations are coming in. You still haven’t addressed the fact that even after the FBI cleared these people, the airline refused to let them back on the plane. What exactly do you think that suggests? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/153 "2009-01-04T17:13:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I would tend to agree and you wouldn’t have to go any farther than Obama’s treating the accusation of his being a Muslim as an insult. What he said was that it was an insult to _Muslims_ for people to insinuate that being a Muslim is something bad. You have zero evidence that he ever took being called a Muslim as a personal insult. I say that with confidence because it never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/154 "2009-01-04T17:21:31Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > But do white guys in trucks get pulled over at random all the time because they’re a white guy in a truck? Do people pulled up at a stoplight next to a white guy in a truck call 911 to report it to the cops ‘cause there’s a suspicious white guy driving a truck and, y’know, there was that white guy who blew up a truck that one time, and it never hurts to be cautious, y’know? Do white guys in trucks get stopped, held for questioning for hours, and then released with no charges, no explanation and no apology after the background checks come out clean? Do you EVER hear of incidents like that? Of course not, and that’s the point here - two white guys’ plot to blow up a truck has not managed to taint everybody’s impressions of whether a random white guy is dangerous when he’s driving a truck, but somehow 9/11 means that ALL brown guys on a plane are suspicious and should be checked out, and that’s “regrettable but hey, that’s the world we now live in.” THAT’s where the racism accusations are coming in. If white, brown, yellow or blue guys are behaving in a way that is suspicious of something extremely dangerous, assuming that suspicion is measured against some “reasonable man” standard, I have no problem with due process being applied–some reasonable precautionary measure, questioning, etc. “White guy driving a truck,” by itself, however, doesn’t do the trick for me. That’s the equivalent of “Muslim family boarding a plane”–there’s nothing inherently suspicious about it. > [@](#): > > You still haven’t addressed the fact that even after the FBI cleared these people, the airline refused to let them back on the plane. What exactly do you think that suggests? Yes, I did. I said I didn’t think the airline handled that well, I believe. I think it’s suggestive that the airline didn’t believe the matter was settled. I have no idea why that was the case, nothing beyond speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/155 "2009-01-04T17:36:38Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > But they were Muslim, and that was (for them, not for most Muslims) the foundation of their evil acts. If your argument is that a real terrorist wouldn’t draw attention to his religion, there’s a logic to that. But that doesn’t mean we don’t know someone is Muslim in another circumstance, even if we may not have recognized it then. I’m not aware of any young college guys who, by nature of belonging to that group, committed acts of atrocity that make me nervous when I see them on a plane. So if you want to profile based on what was essentially a disguise, you’re missing the point. > > I’ll go back to my biker hypothetical, since it was so popular based on all the responses to it. If a biker shaved, showered, put on a suit, and then planted a bomb, we’d be right in saying, “Who knew when that guy walked in?” That doesn’t mean the next time we see a biker type, he’s not, well, a biker; nor does it mean that bikers didn’t act in a manner recently that makes them cause for concern if they again behave in a way that seems alarming. (Again, I’ll point out that I have not concluded that’s what occurred here–this family may well have behaved in an innocuous manner, in which case, they had every right to expect to be left alone.) Lots of Muslims are young college guys. It’s not a disguise or a costume. They shave and shower and everything. Normally, I mean, not just on days that they want to bring down an airplane. Four thousand Muslims are serving the United States in the armed forces. Only nineteen guys brought down planes on 9/11. Why does what those nineteen guys did carry so much more weight with you than what those four thousand soldiers are doing? You might just as well see someone in Muslim garb and say, “Cool, there goes an American hero.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/156 "2009-01-04T17:52:06Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > Lots of Muslims are young college guys. It’s not a disguise or a costume. They shave and shower and everything. Normally, I mean, not just on days that they want to bring down an airplane. It was in this instance, no? I’m not suggesting all Muslims look or dress alike, or that there aren’t Muslim college guys; if you’re inferring that, it’s not logical. I _was_ reacting to the notion that the attire of the 19 means we should now profile for frat boys. The 19 were dressed in a way that was either a disguise of sorts or simply not relevant or memorable in any meaningful way. > [@](#): > > Four thousand Muslims are serving the United States in the armed forces. Only nineteen guys brought down planes on 9/11. Why does what those nineteen guys did carry so much more weight with you than what those four thousand soldiers are doing? They don’t, unless there’s something strongly and reasonably suggestive of a connection greater than appearance. > [@](#): > > You might just as well see someone in Muslim garb and say, “Cool, there goes an American hero.” I must admit, it is satisfying to hear people shout this out at me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/157 "2009-01-04T18:12:36Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Your college dorm-mate was treated badly, and there’s no excuse or reason for that. I just don’t see how we _must_ either always consider someone’s background and heritage, regardless of circumstance, or never do so. I don’t think those are the two choices. I’d still suggest that someone of obvious Islamic background speculating about explosions on a plane (again, depending upon the nature of the comments) is a circumstance unto itself. I know we disagree on that, but we have no disagreement that the animus you describe toward Muslims is simply wrong. > > Thanks for your response, I appreciate you took the time. I guess this is where we differ. Whether someone was Muslim-looking or not I’d consider anyone speculating about explosions on a plane to be a circumstance unto itself. Depending, of course, on the nature of the comments. I just think when it comes to the potential dangerous acts of terrorists, there’s either suspicious behavior or there’s not, and race and ethnicity really shouldn’t enter into it. I appreciate your acknowledgment that the discrimination my friend experienced was unjust. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/158 "2009-01-04T18:51:57Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > You still haven’t addressed the fact that even after the FBI cleared these people, the airline refused to let them back on the plane. What exactly do you think that suggests? Just a WAG, but once you’ve yanked “suspicious” people off a plane, it’s probably better not to put them back on when you’ve got at least a couple girls apparently primed to create a disturbance at 20,000 feet. Airlines like docile passengers. I’m not saying it’s right. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/159 "2009-01-04T18:53:09Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Just a WAG, but once you’ve yanked “suspicious” people off a plane, it’s probably better not to put them back on when you’ve got at least a couple girls apparently primed to create a disturbance at 20,000 feet. Airlines like docile passengers. > > I’m not saying it’s right. My understanding though is that their flight had already departed but the airline refused to send them out an a different one. AirTran’s behavior here is really incomprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617/160 "2009-01-04T18:57:37Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > My understanding though is that their flight had already departed but the airline refused to send them out an a different one. AirTran’s behavior here is really incomprehensible. I understand; that’s a separate issue. I’m just explaining why the airline might not put them back on that same flight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-muslim-family-kicked-off-airtran-flight-for-commenting-on-seat-safety/479617.md?page=9)