# American neocons in government spying (or manipulation U.S. policy) for Israel?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286 "2004-10-03T04:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/81 "2006-01-22T03:54:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Here’s a start, at least: [http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=11020](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=11020) > > Also [http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050801/rozen](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050801/rozen). > > And [http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050606/rozen](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050606/rozen). > > Indicating that, while the DOJ might not actually nail any particular Agents of Influence or Fellow Travelers, this matter does seem to involve a few more people than just Larry Franklin and Douglas Feith. But dang it, the _Nation_ promised us Agents of Influence and Fellow Travelers! Those links are most unsatisfying. One is speculation about how the Franklin investigation might affect Karl Rove in the Plame case. The others are just more rehashing of Franklin and his two supposed AIPAC buddies, plus various airy speculations. I don’t want vague mumblings about the “AIPAC tyranny of fear”, I want hot conspiracies. Let’s have those stunning revelations the _Nation_ has been hinting at all this time - Israeli moles, sexy Mossad agents, Ariel Sharon hiding in Dick Cheney’s closet\* to receive secret documents from the corridors of power! What’s actually come out is a _big_ disappointment. \*had to have been a walk-in closet, don’t you think? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/82 "2006-01-22T18:59:47Z")
> [@JohnFowles](#): > > Israel furthermore enjoys a special protege status with the United States of America, which is the worlds remaining superpower, and at times it’s self-proclaimed moral leader. There is a widespread perception (justified or not) that the power of the US has kept Israel from being held accountable for it’s missteps. From here [the UK] it looks as if the justification for that perception is there in abundance. How many times has the USA used its veto to protect Israel from sanction? [http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/WarCrimes.html](http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/WarCrimes.html) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/83 "2006-01-22T19:07:51Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > From here [the UK] it looks as if the justification for that perception is there in abundance. How many times has the USA used its veto to protect Israel from sanction? > > [http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/WarCrimes.html](http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/WarCrimes.html) About as many times as the UN has unfairly targeted Israel for sanctions? ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/84 "2006-01-22T23:41:58Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > About as many times as the UN has unfairly targeted Israel for sanctions? Unfairly?? strange that the USA was the sole veto, then?? Maybe this ‘unfairness’ is the type visible only to Americans?? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/85 "2006-01-23T04:47:10Z")
Putting aside the eminently reliable nature of the website you linked to, and even assuming that all of those vetos mentioned are accurate, why not? Maybe the other members of the Security Council are/were biased toward the Palestinians. Or is the US the only nation that’s biased toward one side or another. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/86 "2006-01-24T22:48:44Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Putting aside the eminently reliable nature of the website you linked to, and even assuming that all of those vetos mentioned are accurate, why not? Maybe the other members of the Security Council are/were biased toward the Palestinians. Or is the US the only nation that’s biased toward one side or another. Sure thing, because America is always right and the rest of the world is wrong in your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/87 "2006-01-24T22:57:30Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > Sure thing, because America is always right and the rest of the world is wrong in your eyes. Of course not, but I believe in this case that America IS right about Israel, and that much of the world IS unfairly biased against Israel, due to a combination of anti-Semitism and a kind of knee-jerk anti-colonialist attitude which sees the formation of the Israeli state as European colonialsm of the worst kind and the Palestinians as oppressed victims of European/Israeli colonialism. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/88 "2006-01-25T21:50:25Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Of course not, but I believe in this case that America IS right about Israel, and that much of the world IS unfairly biased against Israel, due to a combination of anti-Semitism and a kind of knee-jerk anti-colonialist attitude which sees the formation of the Israeli state as European colonialsm of the worst kind and the Palestinians as oppressed victims of European/Israeli colonialism. …much of the world is unfairly biased against Israel 'cause their anti-Semitic and knee-jerk reactionary anti-colonialist??? 😕 Extraordinary accusation: I think its only fair you provide some extraordinary proof. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/89 "2006-01-25T21:59:12Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …much of the world is unfairly biased against Israel 'cause their anti-Semitic and knee-jerk reactionary anti-colonialist??? 😕 Extraordinary accusation: I think its only fair you provide some extraordinary proof. I know of no proof I could give that you would accept. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/90 "2006-01-25T22:09:26Z")
:dubious: And you might add some “extraordinary proof” that the Palestinians are **not** oppressed victims of colonialism. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/91 "2006-01-25T23:13:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: And you might add some “extraordinary proof” that the Palestinians are **not** oppressed victims of colonialism. To some extent, they probably are, but so are the Piscataway, and I don’t plan on moving. The problem isn’t saying that the Palestinians got a raw deal. Obviously, in a lot of ways, they did. The problem comes when you set it up as some sort of morality play…and when you say “The Israelis are oppressors” and “The Palestinians are their victims”, because that has all sorts of bad effects: [list]First, it renders the Palestinians powerless. Victims are people that things happen to. Both Palestinian and Israeli actions have led to the current situation, and any sort of practical analysis needs to look at both sides’ actions and the choices both sides made and make (as well as the role of outside factors, and other actors), and how both sides respond to each other. Secondly, it legitimizes Palestinian actions. We don’t hold a victim’s actions against his or her oppressor to the same standards that we hold other actions. Whatever the victim does to strike back against his oppressor is valid. Too often people are willing to excuse Palestinian bad behavior Thirdly, it delegitimizes Israeli actions. However Israel treats the Palestinians, they’re still “the oppressor”, and so whatever they do is wrong, by definition, almost. Fourthly, it’s just not true. Palestine had, for most of recent history, been controlled not by Western Europeans, but by Turks. The British only got it after WWI. And then, the Israeli independence movement was an anti-colonial, nationalist movement that rebelled against the British. Plus, a large percentage of Israeli Jews don’t have European backgrounds. They come from, or are descended from people who come from Arab countries. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/92 "2006-01-26T05:02:43Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > To some extent, they probably are, but so are the Piscataway, and I don’t plan on moving. The problem isn’t saying that the Palestinians got a raw deal. Obviously, in a lot of ways, they did. The problem comes when you set it up as some sort of morality play…and when you say “The Israelis are oppressors” and “The Palestinians are their victims”, because that has all sorts of bad effects: > > [list]First, it renders the Palestinians powerless. Victims are people that things happen to. Both Palestinian and Israeli actions have led to the current situation, and any sort of practical analysis needs to look at both sides’ actions and the choices both sides made and make (as well as the role of outside factors, and other actors), and how both sides respond to each other. > > Secondly, it legitimizes Palestinian actions. We don’t hold a victim’s actions against his or her oppressor to the same standards that we hold other actions. Whatever the victim does to strike back against his oppressor is valid. Too often people are willing to excuse Palestinian bad behavior > > Thirdly, it delegitimizes Israeli actions. However Israel treats the Palestinians, they’re still “the oppressor”, and so whatever they do is wrong, by definition, almost. The above is the fallacy of undesirable consequences, namely: the Israeli/Palestinian power imbalance and apportionment of responsibility for a just solution; the legitimacy of Palestinian actions and; the illegitimacy of Israeli actions. It’s not a valid basis to argue the proposition. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Fourthly, it’s just not true. > > Palestine had, for most of recent history, been controlled not by Western Europeans, but by Turks. The British only got it after WWI. And then, the Israeli independence movement was an anti-colonial, nationalist movement that rebelled against the British. Plus, a large percentage of Israeli Jews don’t have European backgrounds. They come from, or are descended from people who come from Arab countries. The substance of the above paragraph doesn’t support the opening proposition: which concerns Israeli colonialist oppressors/Palestinian indigenous victims. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/93 "2006-01-26T14:08:15Z")
What about the Israeli indigenous oppressors and the Palestinian colonialist victims? As I understand it, that’s as accurate a description. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/94 "2006-01-26T15:03:12Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > What about the Israeli indigenous oppressors and the Palestinian colonialist victims? As I understand it, that’s as accurate a description. This is really **Captain Amazing’s** question to answer as my previous reply merely pointed out how the statements addressed to this point did not support the argument advanced. That said, I’m curious how Palestinians could be described as colonialists? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/95 "2006-01-26T15:27:28Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > The above is the fallacy of undesirable consequences, namely: the Israeli/Palestinian power imbalance and apportionment of responsibility for a just solution; the legitimacy of Palestinian actions and; the illegitimacy of Israeli actions. It’s not a valid basis to argue the proposition. I’m not arguing the proposition. I’m arguing the method of analysis…that the “colonial” model is a bad way of thinking of the world. > [@](#): > > The substance of the above paragraph doesn’t support the opening proposition: which concerns Israeli colonialist oppressors/Palestinian indigenous victims. It supports the statment that the Israelis aren’t some sort of tools of European imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/96 "2006-01-26T15:33:24Z")
Thanks for clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286/97 "2006-01-26T15:42:42Z")
Well, truthfully, the original ones in the area were, apparently, tenant farmers on Ottoman lands, while the incoming Jews were buying the land. (Not that there weren’t jews to start with) And, of course, a large portion of the immigrant jews were _from_ other arabic countries, who got forced out as things polarized. But, then again, jews living in the area at the time _are_ Palestinians. (Palestinian National Covenant of 1968). On the other hand, the Palestinan terror organizations are funded from outside the country, by and large. Syria, formerly Iraq, and so on. But what I was thinking of was an inaccurate description, and yes, slightly knowingly inaccurate, of the '48-53 era when the Palestians were stuffed out of other countries back into Israel, over Israel’s objections. It’s more accurate to say that they are _tools_ of the arabic colonialists. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Colonialism is the extension of a nation’s sovereignty over territory and people outside its own boundaries, often to facilitate economic domination over their resources, labor, and markets. The term also refers to a set of beliefs used to legitimize or promote this system, especially the belief that the mores of the colonizer are superior to those of the colonized. Is it wrong to state that, say, Iran or Iraq or Egypt or Syria believed their mores were superior to the Jews, that they tried to extend their sovereignty over territory outside their own boundaries? Just to be a pain in the ass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-neocons-in-government-spying-or-manipulation-u-s-policy-for-israel/267286.md?page=4)