# American Patriotism is out of control. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 18, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728 "2002-05-18T19:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Medea\_s\_Child](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Medea\_s\_Child](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Medea_s_Child)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/21 "2002-05-18T21:11:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lobley \* > \*\* > Americans do it all the time! you do it far far more than anyone else! I sometimes think you do it without realizing it. Americans are the biggest culprits for ‘blanket statements’ about other countries. \*\* I laughed for about a minute at that bit. It’s funny, see, because he’s making a blanket statement about blan… Fine, I’ll keep my giggling to myself. _new and serious topic_ **lobley** , asking for a cite isn’t rude here, its SOP. The whole site is sort of aimed at eradicating ignorance, so there is a general atmosphere of researching and backing up everything, even opinions. You are welcome to have any opinion you want, but this site aims for educated opinions over anecdotes and gut feelings. You’re allowed to have any opinion you want, and even express most of them, but you’ll have a better go at presenting it if you pull up some supporting facts. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/22 "2002-05-18T21:13:16Z")
JarBaby, can I retract my statement now? Only Joking, I will always believe that Americans in general are hurt too easily, that they are too patriotic. However I will always lose the argument simply because I will always be outnumbered. I might wish I did not post it, but I will not change my opinion unless someone can supply me with something that can prove years and years of observation wrong. I don’t hate Americans for it, I hate _it_ for what it does to Americans, I _don’t_ want you guys to be hurt so easily. I want you guys to have more humility for your own sake! Humility is a good thing. It’s a great thing! When you are humble you don’t get hurt by what anyone says, you can take anything! You guys all pride yourselfs on your thick skin in the SDMB so what happenes to that thick skin when your nationality is put into question? Isn’t it hypocritical to have a thick skin for all things except talk of your own nation? Excessive patriotism doesn’t let you have a thick skin, it is not a personal problem of you guys, it’s a national problem, you are all victims of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/23 "2002-05-18T21:17:52Z")
> [@](#): > > lobley, asking for a cite isn’t rude here, its SOP. The whole site is sort of aimed at eradicating ignorance, so there is a general atmosphere of researching and backing up everything, even opinions. You are welcome to have any opinion you want, but this site aims for educated opinions over anecdotes and gut feelings. You’re allowed to have any opinion you want, and even express most of them, but you’ll have a better go at presenting it if you pull up some supporting facts. OK, I understand. but in this particular case it’s very difficult to have any cites because it’s a very general observation, not something specific that I can link to straight away. ANd I don’t like all the ‘cite please’ talk because I think it means opinions get un-expressed because looking for cites for your opinion that is probably correct anyway is too much hard work. I suspect **most** people who ask for cites **know** this so they ask for cites to get the guy off their back and/or avoid being shown to be wrong. So cites in theory are a good thing if you say so. But they are being used as an excuse for a quick win here, and therefore misused. ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/24 "2002-05-18T21:17:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lobley \* > \*\*JarBaby, can I retract my statement now? > Only Joking, I will always believe that Americans in general are hurt too easily, that they are too patriotic. However I will always lose the argument simply because I will always be outnumbered. I might wish I did not post it, but I will not change my opinion unless someone can supply me with something that can prove years and years of observation wrong. > > I don’t hate Americans for it, I hate _it_ for what it does to Americans, I _don’t_ want you guys to be hurt so easily. I want you guys to have more humility for your own sake! Humility is a good thing. It’s a great thing! When you are humble you don’t get hurt by what anyone says, you can take anything! > > You guys all pride yourselfs on your thick skin in the SDMB so what happenes to that thick skin when your nationality is put into question? Isn’t it hypocritical to have a thick skin for all things except talk of your own nation? > > Excessive patriotism doesn’t let you have a thick skin, it is not a personal problem of you guys, it’s a national problem, you are all victims of it. \*\* **Being annoyed by being lumped into a group does not equal patriotism.** Is it that hard to understand or are all people named lobley that thick? If you said “All Japanese people have slant eyes”, I would be just as offended, and not as an American. …and if it isn’t a personal problem of ours then how can you say it’s all of us? Why am I even wasting my time? ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/25 "2002-05-18T21:20:19Z")
Asking for a cite does not equal looking for a quick win. Another generalization. ---
**Author:** ![Regina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@Regina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regina)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/26 "2002-05-18T21:27:15Z")
\*\*Why \*\*do you have this belief that Americans are too easily hurt when generalized about? In other words, what is your contact with Americans - Internet, t.v., magazines, tourists, visits to the US? Because while one may not be able to provide cites for opinions, one _can_ examine the bases for the opinions. So, I’m curious, what is the basis for your opinion in the OP? Most people’s bases are things like the media and books, and thus they have a stereotyped, generalized view sometimes, such as seeing all Brits as jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/27 "2002-05-18T21:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Being annoyed by being lumped into a group does not equal patriotism. Is it that hard to understand or are all people named lobley that thick? I didn’t say that did I? I said being annoyed at being told negative things about your country equals patriotism. > [@](#): > > …and if it isn’t a personal problem of ours then how can you say it’s all of us? I didn’t! I said the opposite in fact! I said generalisations don’t apply to all. > [@](#): > > Why am I even wasting my time? Because you have to show that you are not being offended. I am not trying to offend you. I have not said anything seriously bad about Americans yet! I have only basicaly said you guys are offended too easily, is that really so bad?? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/28 "2002-05-18T21:31:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lobley \* > \*\* > > ANd I don’t like all the ‘cite please’ talk because I think it means opinions get un-expressed because looking for cites for your opinion that is probably correct anyway is too much hard work. I suspect **most** people who ask for cites **know** this so they ask for cites to get the guy off their back and/or avoid being shown to be wrong. > \*\* And guess what? Too bad. If you’re going to express an opinion, be prepared to back it up with evidence. Because if we think it is a false or uninformed opinion, we shoot it down. Besides, shouldn’t you have posted this in the Pit? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/29 "2002-05-18T21:34:06Z")
I have to disagree that Americans are upset with Britons for the response to 9/11. For better or worse the UK has stuck with us as well as anyone else throughout the current crisis. We don’t pay any attention (for the most part) to what skinhead on the street thinks. Most of us think that Tony Blair speaks for the government and the people. His position has been consistent. We understand that there are people everywhere who have been tasteless enough to say the equivilent of we brought it on ourselves. Even some Americans have said that. Can Patriotism be overdone? Sure. Wasn’t it Johnson who said that “Patriotism is the refuge of a scoundrel?” True enough, whoever said it. Jerks who wrap themselves in a flag are hardly an exclusively American occurance however. Jingoism may be expected from an ignorant man on the street, but it is highly dangerous in leadership. And our current leadership are a bunch of jingoists. But I got the sense that the original post was more about how Americans do things like root for the Americans at the Olympics (as does the official American coverge), etc. FWIW, Americans didn’t invent the soccer/football riot, nor is it practiced here. But our news coverage, which normally pretends to be objective, abandons objectivity when it comes to sports coverage, and openly roots for the home team, even if that home team is the nation and the coverage is not by the sports crew, but the national news desk. The bias is obvious, and we consider it harmless. ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/30 "2002-05-18T21:44:09Z")
> [@](#): > > * * * > > ## …and if it isn’t a personal problem of ours then how can you say it’s all of us? > > I didn’t! I said the opposite in fact! I said generalisations don’t apply to all. Generalizations don’t apply to all? Then WTF is a generalization? I always looked at it as a blanket statement. > [@](#): > > I will always believe that Americans in general are hurt too easily, that they are too patriotic. However I will always lose the argument simply because I will always be outnumbered. I might wish I did not post it, but I will not change my opinion unless someone can supply me with something that can prove years and years of observation wrong. Well, I for one don’t give a rat’s ass what you say about America the country and its politics and culture. I know you don’t live here so your observations about it is worth shit to me. So, am I patriotic, lobley? Why do I have to show I am not offended? I **am** offended (not as an American, but just a member of this otherwise intelligent board) by your generalizations. I could be from Japan and I would **still be offended by your generalizations.** ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/31 "2002-05-18T21:46:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DPWhite \* > \*\*I have to disagree that Americans are upset with Britons for the response to 9/11. For better or worse the UK has stuck with us as well as anyone else throughout the current crisis. We don’t pay any attention (for the most part) to what skinhead on the street thinks. Most of us think that Tony Blair speaks for the government and the people. His position has been consistent. We understand that there are people everywhere who have been tasteless enough to say the equivilent of we brought it on ourselves. Even some Americans have said that. > > \*\* My apologies, I was following **lobley’s** way and generalizing on what I have encountered in chat rooms and on other boards. Highly valid, don’t you think? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/32 "2002-05-18T22:16:27Z")
No apology necessary, at least to me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/33 "2002-05-18T22:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > The BNP is patriotism gone too far, the NAZIs were patriotism gone too far. Can you blame me for thinking patriotism is a bad thing? The despotic rules of Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Louis XIV were examples of government gone too far. Can you blame me for thinking government is a bad thing? The soccer hooligans of Britain and the recent disgraceful behavior of NBA fans in Detroit are examples of sports fans going too far. Can you blame me for thinking being a sports fan is a bad thing? Joseph Mengele is an example of medical research gone too far.\* Can you blame me for thinking medical research is a bad thing? The Crusades and the Aztec ritual murders of captives are examples of religion gone too far. Can you blame me for thinking religion is a bad thing? The 900 lb. woman who periodically is featured on the front page of the Weekly World News is an example of eating gone too far. Can you blame me for thinking eating is a bad thing? The OP is an example of generalizations gone too far. Can you blame me for thinking generalizations are bad things? \*(The OP had already Godwinized the thread in the quote I cited.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/34 "2002-05-18T22:40:18Z")
BTW, this > [@](#): > > I said being annoyed at being told negative things about your country equals patriotism. is, excuse me, about the dumbest definition of _patriotism_ I have encountered for a while. The word you were seeking was _chauvinism_. A great many fervent patriots (of all countries) have been quite openly critical of their own countries and accepting of legitimate criticism of their countries by others. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/35 "2002-05-18T22:46:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Why do I have to show I am not offended? I am offended (not as an American, but just a member of this otherwise intelligent board) by your generalizations. I could be from Japan and I would still be offended by your generalizations. Why the hell are you offended? I haven’t actually said anything bad other than implying that Americans in general are too easily offended! that’s all. And if you are offended by that then you obviously have a very thin skin and are _easily offended_! And generalizations don’t apply to all. “Japanese people tend to be big on cameras” IS a generalisation. Some Japanese people might not care for cameras. But generaly most seem to. So the generalisation could be correct without ALL Japanese being obsessed with cameras! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/36 "2002-05-18T22:48:49Z")
I suggest we go to war over it. The USA gets to hit first. ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/37 "2002-05-18T23:03:06Z")
"THE THINGS YOU WILL SEE MAY SHOCK YOU. BUT WE BRING THEM TO YOU FOR A REASON…NOW ON VHS AND DVD. THE WILDEST RIDE YOU WILL EVER SEE. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN… AMERICAN PATRIOTISM GETS OUT OF CONTROL ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/38 "2002-05-18T23:10:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lobley \* > \*\* > > Why the hell are you offended? I haven’t actually said anything bad other than implying that Americans in general are too easily offended! that’s all. And if you are offended by that then you obviously have a very thin skin and are _easily offended_! > > And generalizations don’t apply to all. “Japanese people tend to be big on cameras” IS a generalisation. Some Japanese people might not care for cameras. But generaly most seem to. So the generalisation could be correct without ALL Japanese being obsessed with cameras! \*\* I’m offended because of your generalizations. It’s not very constructive to make generalizations. You said we were easily offended by criticism of America. I don’t care what you say about America, but I do care when I get lumped into a group. Saying “generalizations don’t apply to all” is sort of a contradiction (at least to me). At least now I know that _generally all_ your statements thus far are pretty biased. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/39 "2002-05-18T23:27:20Z")
[ ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728/40 "2002-05-18T23:30:02Z")
Are my posts being moderated? I’ve been trying for the past half hour to post a message with lots of swearing. as a test I then posted a ‘[’ and it got through instantly! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism-is-out-of-control/109728.md?page=3)