# American Patriotism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2007, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402 "2007-04-02T08:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/121 "2007-04-11T22:50:31Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Talk is cheap. Actually doing something is what matters. Six more Canadian troops died yesterday in Afghanistan, incidentally, while fighting to protect the USA from further terrorist attacks. [/QUOTE] The Americans won’t notice until we save their ass in World War III. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/122 "2007-04-11T22:51:50Z")
[QUOTE=mawrestler\_one25] He clearly did not say that he thought you were less of a citizen. He was just saying that most Americans believe this. (which is true) [/QUOTE] Lets see a cite then that most American’s believe that people who immigrate to this country aren’t real citizens (ed) citizens. On the surface, it smells of bullshit…seeing as how nearly every American IN the country is decended from someone who came here from somewhere else. And I didn’t read what he wrote the way you are saying it…though he’s welcome to post back clearing things up. [QUOTE=mawrestler\_one25] He was describing his beliefs of how the vast majority of the country feels, which in no way reflects his personal beliefs. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, then he needs to not speak for the majority of people who he seems to know little about but instead limit his speach to his own thoughts…or he needs to give some cites proving his case. Feel free to do it for him btw…to show that the majority of American’s are A) Some kind of single race, and B) They feel that folk who immigrate to the US aren’t ‘real’ citizens. Because frankly, I’m calling bullshit. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/123 "2007-04-11T23:24:32Z")
> [@](#): > > considering how often we take the exact oppisite attitude; that immigrants aren’t really American. To most patriots, AFAICT, you are born American ( just as you are born white or bllack or Asian ), or you aren’t American. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/124 "2007-04-12T00:37:26Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Are American’s a ‘race’ Der? And perhaps YOU think ‘whites are better’…personally I don’t subscribe to this belief! 😛 And I don’t see what it has to do with patriotism. [/quote] I never even implied that I believe any such thing. I was simply pointing out that there’s little difference between thinking you are better because you are an American, and between thinking you are better because you’re white. Or black, or whatever. [QUOTE=xtisme] This isn’t the pit, but I’m going to brave the wrath of the mods and just say…fuck you. I’m as much a citizen as you are. Moreso in fact, IMHO. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: And I never said otherwise. There are millions of Americans who disagree. [QUOTE=xtisme] Horseshit. This is YOUR own prejudice, as the above shows. [/quote] If you weren’t completely misreading or distorting what I said, you might have a point; as it is, you don’t. [QUOTE=xtisme] And it has nothing to do with racism, except in your own \ mind. [/QUOTE] Except for being near identical. > [@](#): > > Cite? Offhand, WWII comes to mind, when many Japanese Americans were put into camps because it was _assumed_ they were loyal to Japan. That attitude continues today; I see people claim on a regular basis that the Mexicans/Chinese/Arabs whatever who have moved here are all loyal to their birth nations and are just waiting to betray us to them. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/125 "2007-04-12T01:12:36Z")
[QUOTE=mawrestler\_one25] When I ask most American patriots what the best country is they reply America. If you are the best then that implies that other countries are worse. [/QUOTE] Try asking a proud parent sometime who the best kid is. Or ask a kid who the best mommy in the whole wide world is. ---
**Author:** ![mawrestler\_one25](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/41988e/32.png) [@mawrestler\_one25](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mawrestler_one25)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/126 "2007-04-12T02:33:35Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Try asking a proud parent sometime who the best kid is. Or ask a kid who the best mommy in the whole wide world is. [/QUOTE] Relevance? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/127 "2007-04-12T02:58:53Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I never even implied that I believe any such thing. I was simply pointing out that there’s little difference between thinking you are better because you are an American, and between thinking you are better because you’re white. Or black, or whatever. [/QUOTE] Of course you implied it. You projected your own prejudices on others by proxy…i.e. you decided what YOU think others think. And to me, such projection says something in and of itself. YMMV. Leaving that aside, there is a big difference between believing one is better because one is an American (of any race or creed), and out and out racism (i.e. I’m better than you because I’m brown and you are white). We would call someone fixated on their supposed superiority as an American nationalistic…while someone fixated on their superiority through the fiction of race a racist. That you don’t see the distinction again says something about you…if indeed you really don’t see the distinction. :dubious: [QUOTE=Der Trihs] And I never said otherwise. There are millions of Americans who disagree. [/QUOTE] If you didn’t say it for yourself then you are again projecting your own obvious prejudice on others…and I still resent the implications that I’m somehow not a ‘real’ citizen. As I’m not as angry anymore, I will withdraw the knee jerk ‘fuck you’…I’m sorry about that at least. You need to dig up a cite though that the majority of American’s feel this way…or even that a large minority feel this way. Otherwise you need to rephrase your statement to reflect that this is your biased opinion only. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] If you weren’t completely misreading or distorting what I said, you might have a point; as it is, you don’t. [/QUOTE] 😛 [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Except for being near identical. [/QUOTE] Sure…a horse is just like an elephant too. Except for all the differences. Except in the mind of someone who see’s a horse and an elephant as similar of course. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Offhand, WWII comes to mind, when many Japanese Americans were put into camps because it was assumed they were loyal to Japan. [/QUOTE] This is the best example you could come up with?? An event that took place over 6 decades ago?? Wow. Does the term ‘you are reaching’ come to mind? Probably not considering. You are going to need to do better in the cite department than this I’m afraid…though I doubt you will, as be both know that except for some loony websites out there the data isn’t going to support your claim. Don’t we? [QUOTE=Der Trihs] That attitude continues today; [/QUOTE] And yet, you offer nothing to back up your wild ass claim. Imagine that… [QUOTE=Der Trihs] I see people claim on a regular basis that the Mexicans/Chinese/Arabs whatever who have moved here are all loyal to their birth nations and are just waiting to betray us to them. [/QUOTE] And I see fringe loons claiming that the world is flat, or some other such non-sense, from time to time. I however recognize them for what they are…fringe loons. Not mainstream opinion. Do you have any evidence that the majority (or even a large minority) of American’s believe as you claim? Or are you to be counted in the category of fringe folken who make wild claims with no basis? Feel free to cite some reputable sources backing up your claim. Just as an aside, you are the first person to ever claim that THIS mexican wasn’t a real citizen, wasn’t a loyal citizen, or was still loyal to mexico…or some other such non-sense. You get the implication? Or does it float past you? -XT ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/128 "2007-04-12T05:20:18Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] This isn’t the pit, but I’m going to brave the wrath of the mods and just say…fuck you.. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=xtisme] As I’m not as angry anymore, I will withdraw the knee jerk ‘fuck you’…I’m sorry about that at least. [/QUOTE] As you noted, this is not the **Pit**. Apology noted, but Do Not do this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/129 "2007-04-12T05:26:07Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] If you weren’t completely misreading or distorting what I said, you might have a point; as it is, you don’t. [/QUOTE] Actually, it appears that he read your statements quite correctly and his point is valid. You are the one who invented a definition of patriotism that required one to believe that one’s countery was better than another country. There are words that cover that sitruation and it is true that some people might extend their personal version of patriotism to the point of chauvinsim, but that is not actually part of the definition of patriotism and you distort the discussion when you equate them. It is quite possible to have a deep love of country without possessing a belief that either you or the country are superior to others either beacuse of or coincidental to that association. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/130 "2007-04-12T06:28:10Z")
I wish I hadn’t started this thread. I should have guessed that **Der Trihs** would be along to put his oar in at some point and completely cock things up ::smack:: OK I believe Americans, whether immigrants or not, are still just as patriotic as they were, nothing has changed. You are entitled to GWB bash just as I am to Blair bash, it’s called freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/131 "2007-04-12T08:25:09Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] I wish I hadn’t started this thread. [/quote] I’m glad you did… sometimes we need to take our feelings out, dust them off, and confirm what we’re doing and why. These sorts of debates are one way of doing that (no matter who drives by with some foolish knee-jerk reaction). > [@](#): > > OK I believe Americans, whether immigrants or not, are still just as patriotic as they were, nothing has changed. There is anecdotal evidence that (at least some) immigrants to America are even more patriotic to America than the native-born. Not all, obviously, but a significant portion of them. [Link here](http://americanindividualist.blogspot.com/2006/06/immigrants-lesson-in-patriotism_29.html). Also [here](http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2003_pr001_soldier.asp) and [here](http://www.bbk.ac.uk/polsoc/staff/academic/eric-kaufmann/samuel-huntington-review). Only the lunatic fringe of the radical Right thinks immigrants should go home - we’re a nation of immigrants! > [@](#): > > You are entitled to GWB bash just as I am to Blair bash, it’s called freedom of speech. Remember, it’s not just our right to bash GWB if we want to; it is the duty of every citizen to call out what they see as errors in government. It’s why we have the 1st Amendment in the first place (even though it’s kinda cool for getting all the pron, too :)). Now about that farking Tony Blair… I have a serious bone to pick. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/132 "2007-04-12T20:42:15Z")
Nobody deserves MY unending and unquestioning support. They have to earn it. I give them SOME slack at the beginning and will tolerate SOME errors as part of a learning process. However, that must end eventually. Sonner or later, I expect to see positive results. Further. This is still Amurrica. Amurricans have a right and duty to question what is going on. Our first loyalty is to the country, and NOT to one individual whether he is president or not. Sometimes it is patriotic and just good sense to put a leash on a leader. He is certainly not the brightest candle, and if he had been willing to listen to his betters or at least learn from his mistakes instead of stubbornly repeating them, if he had at least pretended to take notice of reasonable concerns instead of trying to be the tough guy he never really was, then I might cut some slack. If he was a blooming idiot with a good heart, I might cut him some slack. He blew all his “political capital”. Patriotism means doing what is best for your country. It is not doing what is best for GW or his party. We are a republic, not a big ass personality cult. ---
**Author:** ![mawrestler\_one25](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/41988e/32.png) [@mawrestler\_one25](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mawrestler_one25)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/133 "2007-04-12T20:54:15Z")
Not to be a dick but America may be the only country where it’s literate people spell its name Amurrica. lol ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/134 "2007-04-12T21:01:37Z")
[QUOTE=mawrestler\_one25] Not to be a dick but America may be the only country where it’s literate people spell its name Amurrica. lol [/QUOTE] lol, it was my way of ridiculing the superpatriots out there “in the real USA” who hate any opposing opinions. Gee silly me. ---
**Author:** ![mawrestler\_one25](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/41988e/32.png) [@mawrestler\_one25](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mawrestler_one25)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/135 "2007-04-12T21:27:08Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] lol, it was my way of ridiculing the superpatriots out there “in the real USA” who hate any opposing opinions. Gee silly me. [/QUOTE] oh lol my bad ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/136 "2007-04-13T00:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=mawrestler\_one25] Not to be a dick but America may be the only country where it’s literate people spell its name Amurrica. lol [/QUOTE] But at least we aren’t (all) humor impaired. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/137 "2007-04-13T01:34:24Z")
A lesson in reading comprehension: When a person wishes to communicate his feelings on a subject he will often include words like “I believe” or “I think” or “I agree with X [and here is what he said].” When a person wishes to explain what people beside himself think he will say something like “Some people think” or “Many people say X.” When a person uses language like this it doesn’t mean he actually agrees with what the other people say. This can be for a variety of reasons, depending on the subject. It is improper form to assume the speakers agrees, particularly when you know things about his background that would imply otherwise. It is wise to ask for clarification if you become confused. As for **Der Trihs** , well, I think he’s on thin ice on this one. The type of patriots he is referring to don’t exactly write scholarly articles. Furthermore, I seriously doubt they would be the majority of the country, or even a large fraction. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2007, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402/138 "2007-04-13T03:27:15Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] As you noted, this is not the Pit. Apology noted, but Do Not do this again. [/QUOTE] As you also noted, I already apologized. However, your warning is noted as well Tom…and FWIW I think it was fairly given. I allowed my temper to get the best of me…and I’ll at least TRY not to have it happen again. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-patriotism/398402.md?page=6)