# American Plans To Kill Other Americans on 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2002, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416 "2002-09-07T09:33:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/1 "2002-09-07T09:33:32Z")
If you haven’t seen the story it’s [here](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/06/germany.arrest.explosives/index.html). > [@](#): > > German officials arrested a Turkish man and his American fiancee who they say planned an attack on a U.S. military base in Germany close to the anniversary of the September 11 attacks. No details on who she is, but quite frankly, in her case, I’m willing to let Ashcroft shred the Constitution and have his way with her. There are days when I think to myself, “If the aliens were to arrive and wipe us all out, I’d be grateful.” This story makes it one of them. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/2 "2002-09-07T10:09:13Z")
American terrorist? What a shocker. Remember Timothy McVeigh? Don’t let Ashcroft shred our most sacred document just yet, **Tucker**. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/3 "2002-09-07T10:21:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > \*\*American terrorist? What a shocker. Remember Timothy McVeigh? Don’t let Ashcroft shred our most sacred document just yet, **Tucker**. \*\* Yes, but after McVeigh, the militias quieted down and have largely been forgotten (though this might not be a good thing). One would have thought that after 9/11 _Americans_ would have gotten the hint. (Terribly naive on my part, I suppose.) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/4 "2002-09-07T16:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > One would have thought that after 9/11 Americans would have gotten the hint. (Terribly naive on my part, I suppose.) That wasn’t the terribly naive part. The terribly naive part was the supposition in your OP that the constitution, once “shredded” for a special case, is still “whole” for everybody else. JMO ---
**Author:** ![Venoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c4cdca/32.png) [@Venoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Venoma)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/5 "2002-09-07T16:59:32Z")
much as she and her consort are detestible creatures, you can’t really mean to do what you suggest - they ignore the rights of their potential victims, but we cannot ignore their rights without being lowered to their level. You’re likely just wanting to get it out of your system, and I don’t blame you. Quick, humane death is what I wish for those ones. They likely won’t get it though - rotting in prison for years might be better, or worse, depending on how you view it. Sigh. How can you keep this attitude from spreading? Hatred of whole nations or races - I myself am not a big enough person to actively hate millions of people. Strikes me as more than somewhat insane. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/6 "2002-09-08T09:35:00Z")
I must admit I have hatred in me. But I hate only one person, for something very specific he did to me personally. I can’t understand the desire to hurt _strangers_. For Osama I don’t really feel hatred, or at least not the kind I feel for the guy mentioned above. Toward Osama I feel the way I feel toward a wild dog: “Time to put this one down before it gets somebody.” I’m not a pacifist weenie; I fully understand the occasional necessity to fight, but I can’t imagine actively hating the people I’m fighting against. What a shitty situation that must be, having to shoot at people you don’t hate (and yes, I am extremely thankful I never had to face a draft, as my father did). That said, **Tuckerfan** , this story really aroused my bloodlust. I don’t say “shred the Constitution,” but I totally understand how you felt when you said it. Look back at a lot of what people said on September 12 last year; many people said things in the heat of the moment they’d like to take back. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/7 "2002-09-08T10:10:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t let Ashcroft shred our most sacred document just yet The menu at McDonald’s? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/8 "2002-09-08T12:24:35Z")
\>\> I’m willing to let Ashcroft shred the Constitution and have his way with her. One more indication that you are a fucking idiot. It is the Constitution and the rights of people that we are trying to preserve. You are in the camp of those who believe those values should be destroyed as a matter of expedience for your own ends. people like Ashcroft and you are the real threat, much more than the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/9 "2002-09-08T12:46:56Z")
“Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.” -Benjamin Franklin ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/10 "2002-09-08T15:11:09Z")
I always liked that one **Squink**. Here’s one of my favorites: > [@](#): > > If the people are not completely free and happy-the fault will be entirely their own -Gen. Geo Washington ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/11 "2002-09-08T15:32:01Z")
I agree with sailor’s estimation of tuckerfan, I think people like you are the real enemy. I’d rather see the empire state building fall than see Ashcroft even fold over the corner of the constitution to keep his place. THat being said, let’s address the logical fallacy in your argument. The constitution just protects her from justice being handed out prior to a trial. To shred the constitution would mean to not prove that she is guilty. however if you prove that she is guilty there is no longer any need to shred the constitution. See how that works? You’re a fucking moron, do us all a favor and die. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/12 "2002-09-08T16:29:08Z")
::: pokes head in, thinking perhaps this is someplace where hyperbole isn’t known, sees that **venoma** understands and decides that a few folks need to check the settings on their hyperbole meters::: > [@](#): > > The constitution just protects her from justice being handed out prior to a trial. To shred the constitution would mean to not prove that she is guilty. however if you prove that she is guilty there is no longer any need to shred the constitution. See how that works? Guess you’ve never heard of the [Eighth Amendment](http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm)? You know the one that says > [@](#): > > Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, **nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.** I can’t think of a better candidate for cruel and unusual punishment than the “American” referenced in the article. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/13 "2002-09-08T16:36:16Z")
The harm done by inflicting cruelty upon others is not limited to the harm done to those others. Let us learn to value these freedoms that make us the enemy of our enemies, and try not to learn from them the unreasoned hatred of that which we do not understand. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/14 "2002-09-08T16:53:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t think of a better candidate for cruel and unusual punishment than the “American” referenced in the article. After she’s had a fair trial and (maybe) been found guilty of course. That pesky 'Innocent ‘till proven guilty’ thing’s a pain in the ass, I know. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/15 "2002-09-08T16:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t think of a better candidate for cruel and unusual punishment than the “American” referenced in the article. But don’t worry; others can think of plenty of candidates, I’m sure. Once we’ve removed that minor hurdle for _this_ American, perhaps other Americans can be cruelly and unusually punished, right? Child rapers, for instance — what right do they have to humane treatment, anyway, eh? And how about those white pricks who dragged the black man to death behind a pickup truck in Texas; why don’t we drag them around behind a police van? Oh, and surely some would like to wield a surgical saw on that woman who hit the homeless man with her car and left him in her garage to die. And those damn dirty pot peddlers, teaching our kids drugs are cool; let’s lock ‘em in a room and pipe smoke in until they turn blue. And the anti-American protestors who get rounded up every time a US city hosts a WTO event; they deserve a few ass-rapings, don’t they, fuckin’ commies? Seem like a slippery slope? It’s not. There is no slope; only the barrier to government exess that 8th Amendment you’re so eager to ignore provides, _without which it’s permissible to encode those punishments into legislation._ And here’s a note on hyperbole: The statement “If the aliens were to arrive and wipe us all out, I’d be grateful.” is clearly presented as hyperbole and easily understood to be meant as such. The statement “quite frankly, in her case, I’m willing to let Ashcroft shred the Constitution and have his way with her” is presented as a “frank” opinion, and is easily demonstrated to be _fuckwitted_. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/16 "2002-09-08T18:50:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*“Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.” > -Benjamin Franklin \*\* Or something like that. In other words, not that. Do some research. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/17 "2002-09-08T19:27:55Z")
**manhattan:** > [@](#): > > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin Historical review of Pennsylvania (1759) [http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote04.htm](http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote04.htm) and many others. Is it now a jailable offense to use the revised standard edition of 18th century english, or do you feel that the phrase has lost something in translation ? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/18 "2002-09-08T19:36:30Z")
I think the words “essential” and “little temporary” are extremely important modifiers in that statement. Leaving them out changes the meaning of the quotation to a significant extent. ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/19 "2002-09-08T20:03:13Z")
**Benjamin** is working for us! **Asscraft** is working for bin Loaded! ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416/20 "2002-09-08T21:05:10Z")
It is not even clear if she was involved at all or if her boyfriend was acting alone without her knowledge. > [@](#): > > [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/08/germany.arrest/index.html): Federal prosecutors, who are reviewing the evidence, said in a statement: “It must be clarified whether the male suspect acted alone, whether the two acted together or whether they planned the terror attack in Heidelberg as members of a terror organisation.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-plans-to-kill-other-americans-on-9-11/127416.md?page=2)