# American Progress (John Gast, 1872) Was the Artist Being Ironic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 6, 2025, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778 "2025-08-06T17:00:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/1 "2025-08-06T17:00:59Z")
My question concerns [this painting.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/American_Progress_%2528John_Gast_painting%2529.jpg) Looked at with an eye _not_ pre-loaded with a notion that the default race for human status is “white,” it looks kinda horrendous, especially the section that depicts Native Americans fleeing before the relentless advance of the European-descended settlers. My question is, is this a painting by a man who _approves_ of that which he is depicting? Or (as is my fondest desire) is it an act of resistance, an attempt to pull back the curtain separating the safe-at-the-gallery/museum/art-show viewer from their personal complicity in such a horror? The pessimist in me sees it as the former. He keeps remembering when he learned that L. Frank Baum had literally called for the extermination of all Native Americans in North America. But the Wizard seemed to be such a _nice_ old man. How could he have been dreamed up by a monster? Please make it possible for me to believe in the vision of John Gast. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/2 "2025-08-06T17:02:30Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > this painting. File not found: /v1/AUTH\_mw/wikipedia-commons-local-public.fd/f/fd/American\_Progress\_%2528John\_Gast\_painting%2529.jpg ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/3 "2025-08-06T17:10:28Z")
Does this work? [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/American_Progress_%28John_Gast_painting%29.jpg/1024px-American_Progress_%28John_Gast_painting%29.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/American_Progress_%28John_Gast_painting%29.jpg/1024px-American_Progress_%28John_Gast_painting%29.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/4 "2025-08-06T17:12:56Z")
That’s the painting in question, so, I _guess_. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/5 "2025-08-06T17:13:49Z")
I’m not certain. The Native Americans and the bison could be seen as fleeing from Columbia, but then, the covered wagon and the fur-trappers could also be seen the same way. I think it’s meant as merely chronological: The bison and the natives were there first, and after then came the trappers and the people in covered wagons, and then after them were stagecoaches and farmers, and then after them were trains. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/6 "2025-08-06T17:18:15Z")
You got to see trappers? _I_ wanna see trappers! NO fair! C’mon, show me how to find the trappers. I’ll be your best friend… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/7 "2025-08-06T17:21:27Z")
Well, that’s what I assume the group in the bottom middle is. Could be mistaken on that. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/8 "2025-08-06T17:21:29Z")
I’d defer to art historians, but the title of the piece and all the symbolism therein seems pretty clearly to point toward the… inevitability of American Progress. Look at the sun and the light on the right hand side of the painting from whence progress is marching. America is bringing light and progress to the dark and wild places. We can certainly look at the painting and see the inherent negatives built into the work, but if you’re asking about authorial intent? It seems clear that this is not a work meant to pillory American westward expansion, but rather to invoke pride. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/9 "2025-08-06T17:22:40Z")
Generally, political art isn’t subtle. The largest and most angelic element of the picture is a giant goddess, carrying a school book. She seems very confident and optimistic. If the painting was meant to be taken as depicting tragedy, I’d expect her to be tearful or at least carry some icon that signals something like peace or mercy. As it is, the most favorable interpretation that I think we can give is that he’s suggesting that the natives should be educated and converted away from savagery. That is, as opposed to driving them on a death march over a cliff or otherwise massacring them. So…better but still questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/10 "2025-08-06T17:23:00Z")
It’s meant to invoke more than that, with Blondie’s dress about to fall off ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/11 "2025-08-06T17:25:24Z")
That part, at least, I think is just symbolic of the fact that the artist liked drawing pictures of women whose clothes are falling off. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/12 "2025-08-06T17:27:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > the artist liked drawing pictures of women whose clothes are falling off. My point exactly. Also that it was meant to appeal to the prurient male gaze under the guise of something ostensibly high-minded, like the “Biblical” nude shows popular in those days. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/13 "2025-08-06T17:28:53Z")
John Gast, Master of Perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/14 "2025-08-06T17:30:32Z")
I’d put it as symbolic of a few thousand years of artists collectively uniting on the desire for people’s clothes to fall off. Or, at least, for their patrons to have that desire. There was a time before the Internet, after all. Imagine living in a time where you need to hire a group of sculptors for a few years, to carve your kink into stone, and then you have to get as much mileage out of that as you can until you can afford a second work. In general, I’d say that there’s a lot to learn from art that’s isn’t necessarily intentional on the part of the creators. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/15 "2025-08-06T17:36:40Z")
As far as I can tell from a brief online search, Gast held no political beliefs that were radical for his era. And it was an era when most white Americans saw the white settlement of the west as a good thing and the Native Americans who lived in those areas as an obstacle in the path of that good thing. I think it’s also worth noting that Gast was a commercial artist. He painted _American Progress_ on commission. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/16 "2025-08-06T17:36:43Z")
There’s a long history of eroticizing nationalism and war. France, with their Marianne, is the most honest about it: “Yes, we want our national personification to be a hottie.” ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/17 "2025-08-06T17:41:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The pessimist in me sees it as the former. He keeps remembering when he learned that L. Frank Baum had literally called for the extermination of all Native Americans in North America. > > But the Wizard seemed to be such a _nice_ old man. How could he have been dreamed up by a monster? Please make it possible for me to believe in the vision of John Gast. The Wizard was the manipulator behind an demagogic cult of personality of a fabricated “Great Man” leader who then rewarded the vanquishing heroes with ersatz treasures (“a lot of bran-new brains” for the Scarecrow, a sawdust-stuffed heart for the Woodsman, and a ‘Potion of Courage’ for the Lion), and rules over a kingdom of the ‘lesser’ Munchkin race, sending a child to assassinate a competing autocrat. He’s a fucking tyrant. > [@Chronos](#): > > I’m not certain. The Native Americans and the bison could be seen as fleeing from Columbia, but then, the covered wagon and the fur-trappers could also be seen the same way. > > I think it’s meant as merely chronological: The bison and the natives were there first, and after then came the trappers and the people in covered wagons, and then after them were stagecoaches and farmers, and then after them were trains. The Natives in the foreground are directly in Columbia’s path and can be seen staring up at her with fear and away from the covered wagon, while the white settlers are just casually walking and plowing a cultivated field, while the stagecoach literally advances under her skirts. Also note that the right (eastern) side of the picture is in light with the sun on the horizon with a developed city, maritime trade, and trains advancing to the west, while the left (western) side of the picture is dark and cloud-covered, almost literally being pushed by the advancing Columbia. You can, of course, give the benefit of the doubt that this is just all “merely chronological” but I think any contextual analysis of this shows clear intent of justifying the “Manifest Destiny” of the white colonists advancing over Native American lands and developing them as a divine right and duty, especially given the sentiment and developments of the post-Civil War Westward Expansionist era. I see no indication of any kind of irony in the picture, and certainly not criticism of westward expansion or subjugation, expropriation, and forced emigration of the indigenous peoples. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/18 "2025-08-06T17:54:38Z")
Yeah, the change in light is pretty clear in meaning. I take back my ambiguity: At the very least, it means “this change is happening, and it’s a good thing”. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/19 "2025-08-06T17:56:34Z")
So I guess it’s “horrendous.” And as a beneficiary of such horror that was visited upon the ancestors of my fellow human beings, I feel appalled by suggestions that calling for any attempt, no matter how small, to atone for my own ancestors’ actions constitutes seditious activity. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778/20 "2025-08-06T18:04:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > he Native Americans and the bison And the bear; which is also snarling back at the armed invaders coming after them in a similar fashion to the Native Americans. (I’m not sure what the creature with a striped tail between the bear and the humans is. Maybe it’s one of their dogs? There’s another one there which is definitely a dog.) I think the humans are being seen as equivalent to the bear and bison: unwanted large animals being driven off. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-progress-john-gast-1872-was-the-artist-being-ironic/1021778.md?page=2)