# American secret agent must choose between saving small US city or Chinese metropolis. What to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445 "2011-06-05T22:06:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![evol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/73ab20/32.png) [@evol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evol)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/21 "2011-06-06T14:26:26Z")
Obviously, the US agent should stay consistent with US policy and precedent, which always is to get thousands of Americans killed whenever there is a problem abroad. Historically, such as in Viet Nam, we like to ensure a ball-park of 50k US deaths in order to meet our policy goals, Southeast-Asia-wise. So, she must toast Wheeling, West Virginia on behalf of the US government. It’s an elegant solution because it would get almost exactly the correct number of Americans killed per-problem-in-Southeast-Asia. The agent’s razor-sharp American intellect would require only about 2 seconds to reason this out, so she would have three more seconds to decide what she will do with the last 15 seconds, an eternity for an American agent, given her US exceptionalism. But wait. She must then reckon with the fact that there is a fatal flaw in the math. Sure, while the correct number of Americans will be killed by US policy, a definite mission victory, her decision would save millions of Asians while helping Asia rather than killing millions of Asians while helping Asia, which would be untraditional ergo un-American. That would definitely be a policy problem going beyond the unprecedented and well into the opposite of every precedent. The fast-thinking agent would have figured this out in another two seconds, leaving only one more second for further deliberation. But one of the amazing things about US agents is their ability to think outside the box, so, well within that crucial second, she does escape the false dilemma. She smiles, lights a smoke and does nothing, saving neither city. Boom, and boom. She will now have helped both the US and Asia in the usual way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/22 "2011-06-06T14:39:03Z")
Human being first, American second. I would attempt to disable the Beijing weapon, while telling my lover to haul her ass over to the other controls while I yelled out exactly what I was doing while I was doing it. The greater number of _human beings_ is saved, and there is still a possibility all will be saved. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/23 "2011-06-06T14:52:30Z")
I’ve been to Wheeling many times. Don’t care for it much, on the whole. All the same, it is good-bye Beijing. It comes down to saving some number of people I know over saving some larger number of people who are just abstractions to me. Plus, I live close enough to West Virginia that I don’t want to have to deal with shooting the inevitable refugees and looters out of my yard. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/24 "2011-06-06T15:04:09Z")
Personally I’d be paralyzed by the question for more than five seconds, so both would die. But assuming quick thinking, I’d have to choose the larger number. As a spy, I could see being duty bound to put America first, but Beijing is the capital, and who knows what kind of anarchy would spring up in China if they are destroyed. I’m pretty sure there would be a military takeover in days, and who knows how crazy the guy with the nukes would be? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/25 "2011-06-06T15:04:13Z")
I keep hearing things like “People in Beijing are just an abstraction to me.” What does this mean? In what way are they more abstract? I’m betting most of us have never been to Wheeling for any period of time, so we don’t know _them_ personally. Is this a euphemism for “Beijing occupants aren’t quite as human as people who look like me”? In what way is a citizen of Wheeling worth more than 60 citizens of Beijing? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/26 "2011-06-06T15:06:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Human being first, American second. I would attempt to disable the Beijing weapon, while telling my lover to haul her ass over to the other controls while I yelled out exactly what I was doing while I was doing it. The greater number of _human beings_ is saved, and there is still a possibility all will be saved. That’s it. I might have an ethical duty to keep my promise, and I might have a professional duty to work for the government, but my greatest ethical duty is to minimize suffering. This scenario forces me to act unethically in some respect–break my word, or let millions of people die–and while my word is worth a lot to me, it’s not worth as much as the life of a single person, much less millions of people. In my opinion, moral calculations that include nationality, ethnicity, ideology, etc.are responsible for the great horrors of the twentieth century, and the sooner humanity has done with them, the better. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/27 "2011-06-06T15:12:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Personally I’d be paralyzed by the question for more than five seconds, so both would die. > > But assuming quick thinking, I’d have to choose the larger number. As a spy, I could see being duty bound to put America first, but Beijing is the capital, and who knows what kind of anarchy would spring up in China if they are destroyed. > > I’m pretty sure there would be a military takeover in days, and who knows how crazy the guy with the nukes would be? That’s a good point. An Anarchic chaotic China would be worse for America and might lead to greater loss of American lives than the destruction of Wheeling. Chinese nukes falling into terrorist hands is just one scenario. So it’s better in the long run to save Beijing. Of course, if I know my cheesy super-spy fiction, Demetria Bail will find a way to save both cities. Unless the writers are going for Dark and Edgy. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/28 "2011-06-06T15:13:02Z")
I ain’t paying my taxes to save Beijing. Let them pay their own taxes and get their own super-spies. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/29 "2011-06-06T15:17:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I keep hearing things like “People in Beijing are just an abstraction to me.” What does this mean? In what way are they more abstract? I’m betting most of us have never been to Wheeling for any period of time, so we don’t know _them_ personally. Is this a euphemism for “Beijing occupants aren’t quite as human as people who look like me”? In what way is a citizen of Wheeling worth more than 60 citizens of Beijing? I thought I was pretty clear. I’ve been to Wheeling often and I personally know people who live there. Beijing is a spot on a map to me. I’ve never been there and I don’t know anybody there. 20 or 30 million abstractions mean less to me than a handful of actual people with faces, names, personalities, and families. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/30 "2011-06-06T15:18:43Z")
Not american, but if I was to switch it to a small english city, I’m still going to try save the greater number of people. No, I’ve not been to Beijing, but I’m pretty sure they’re just as human over there as over here. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/31 "2011-06-06T15:27:57Z")
I’d try to save the American city first. As an American agent it is my duty to protect this country first. If it were between Beijing and a town in England I’d try to save the latter, as it is my duty to protect this country and her allies first. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/32 "2011-06-06T15:41:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > For me the question is, saving which city leads to an outcome of me nailing Rita Fiore? Hawk is not a secret agent. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/33 "2011-06-06T15:44:14Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > If you want to get really _really_ cynical about it, Bail should save Wheeling, not only because it’s her mission to protect America, but also because the destruction of Beijing would knock the US’s chief rival down a large peg, without dirtying our hands. > > Not necessarily advocating for this view, which I recognize is pretty sociopathic. Strictly humanitarian issues aside, the destruction of China’s capital will be crippling to its economy, and the ripple effects will be terrible for the world, which includes America. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/34 "2011-06-06T16:04:21Z")
Easy question–I’d save Wheeling. I hope none of you saying you would save Beijing ever wonder why you aren’t (and never will be) in a position of power, because you have your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/35 "2011-06-06T16:07:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Easy question–I’d save Wheeling. > > I hope none of you saying you would save Beijing ever wonder why you aren’t (and never will be) in a position of power, because you have your answer. Does saving Wheeling include killing the moll? If not, how do you think what’s left of the Chinese government reacts to what you’ve done? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/36 "2011-06-06T16:07:27Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Easy question–I’d save Wheeling. > > I hope none of you saying you would save Beijing ever wonder why you aren’t (and never will be) in a position of power, because you have your answer. Says the snow-mobile salesman. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/37 "2011-06-06T16:08:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Does saving Wheeling include killing the moll? If not, how do you think what’s left of the Chinese government reacts to what you’ve done? Save Beijing. How do you think the US government reacts to what you have done? ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/38 "2011-06-06T16:15:36Z")
I’d save Beijing. People are people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/39 "2011-06-06T16:18:08Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Save Beijing. How do you think the US government reacts to what you have done? Save a few million people vs. saving face. Gee, that _is_ a tough one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/40 "2011-06-06T16:19:35Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Easy question–I’d save Wheeling. > > I hope none of you saying you would save Beijing ever wonder why you aren’t (and never will be) in a position of power, because you have your answer. Because love of power corrupts? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445.md?page=3)