# American secret agent must choose between saving small US city or Chinese metropolis. What to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445 "2011-06-05T22:06:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/81 "2011-06-06T21:37:09Z")
Why is it that everyone assume that saving lives is a worthwhile goal in and of itself? China has been working to get its population down for decades now. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/82 "2011-06-06T22:02:44Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Easy question–I’d save Wheeling. > > I hope none of you saying you would save Beijing ever wonder why you aren’t (and never will be) in a position of power, because you have your answer. From my perspective, a better question to ask would be why some people deserve to be in power when they clearly have sociopathic tendancies manifested as nationalism > [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s not the issue. An American agent has likely taken an oath, and otherwise has a duty to protect American interests. Duty is clear–she must save the American city. That may not be the most moral choice, but she has no duty to abstract notions of morality. She doesn’t make policy, she carries it out. Isn’t an oath, or the underlying bond of a promise, also an abstract notion of morality? What makes someone who keeps a promise more or less moral than one who doesn’t keep it, especially taking into account that the only reason why some say its better for this American agent to save the US city is due to the oath? That’s like saying your words are your cite; its circular logic. If there is a morality as we commonly understand it, then the oath is secondary to the moral act of saving a small town or a big city > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > There is no such thing as “greater virtue” or “the greatest good.” Those are just concepts you create to make yourself feel thatyour preferences have some element of objective truth to them. But they don’t. Using those words is basically the same thing as arguing that the flavor of chocolate is objectively superior than that of vanilla, which is of course absurd. If one attributes value to life and wants to lower suffering, then there definitely is a greater virtue by reducing the latter and saving the former. > [@Scumpup](#): > > Who gets to decide where the tipping point is on ratios? 2:1? 3:1? What is the correct mathematical formula for calculating how many strangers’ lives have a greater value than the life of one person you know? Irrelevant. We’re not talking about what is the proper ratio of American to Chinese lives to save, we are talking about this decision given in the OP and what criteria one would use to come to a conclusion > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about 1 Doctor Doom vs. 100 wrongly convicted and imprisoned Richard Kimbles? I’d save Doom. Cause you can’t beat anybody with Richard Kimble in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/83 "2011-06-06T22:37:12Z")
My gut reaction is to save Beijing. FWIW I’m an American, and although I’ve never been to Wheeling, WV, I live within 300 miles of there. Afterward, if I felt it necessary for my own safety, that of my superiors, or the Chinese moll herself, I’d try to work out some story with her so that she’d get the credit for disabling the Beijing satellite. Maybe I could say I was shouting instructions to her as I disabled the other satellites and she had to make the choice between Wheeling and Beijing. Looking over the thread, it’s surprising to me how many of the responses cite Agent Bail’s oath to protect the lives of US citizens. The OP doesn’t tell us she was under any such oath. She’s described as working for “an American super-secret spy agency”, not the US military or the CIA, so I wouldn’t make any bets as to what sort of oath she’s under. It’s not totally clear from the OP that Bail is even employed by the US government at all, and if she is then she might have some super-secret oath about, say, protecting the best interests of the US government. That might very well mean saving Beijing. I think it’s fighting the hypothetical to answer based on an assumption that Agent Bail is sworn to protect American lives when the OP does not tell us this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/84 "2011-06-06T22:40:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Irrelevant. We’re not talking about what is the proper ratio of American to Chinese lives to save, we are talking about this decision given in the OP and what criteria one would use to come to a conclusion Pay closer attention to what you think you are responding to, then. The exact criteria I cited was who I know v. who I do not know. You may not agree but by how you are now choosing to phrase the dilemma, it is not irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/85 "2011-06-06T22:55:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > From my perspective, a better question to ask would be why some people deserve to be in power when they clearly have sociopathic tendancies manifested as nationalism your dirty words don’t scare me. I’m for us and against them, which you can call sociopathic nationalism if you like. > [@](#): > > If one attributes value to life and wants to lower suffering, then there definitely is a greater virtue by reducing the latter and saving the former. Sure, but you seem to be using “greater virtue” here in the sense of “consistent with one"s belief system,” which I have no objectio to. Lobo, OTOH, was using it in the sense of “objectively better,” which is obviously ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/86 "2011-06-06T22:59:08Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > My gut reaction is to save Beijing. FWIW I’m an American, and although I’ve never been to Wheeling, WV, I live within 300 miles of there. > > Afterward, if I felt it necessary for my own safety, that of my superiors, or the Chinese moll herself, I’d try to work out some story with her so that she’d get the credit for disabling the Beijing satellite. Maybe I could say I was shouting instructions to her as I disabled the other satellites and she had to make the choice between Wheeling and Beijing. > > Looking over the thread, it’s surprising to me how many of the responses cite Agent Bail’s oath to protect the lives of US citizens. The OP doesn’t tell us she was under any such oath. She’s described as working for “an American super-secret spy agency”, not the US military or the CIA, so I wouldn’t make any bets as to what sort of oath she’s under. It’s not totally clear from the OP that Bail is even employed by the US government at all, and if she is then she might have some super-secret oath about, say, protecting the best interests of the US government. That might very well mean saving Beijing. > > I think it’s fighting the hypothetical to answer based on an assumption that Agent Bail is sworn to protect American lives when the OP does not tell us this is the case. I don’t think that’s fighting the hypothetical at all. I was certainly operating under the assumption that Bail had sworn such an oath when I wrote the OP. And I don’t know how she can be working for American super-secret spy agency without working for the US government, and if she’s the (fictional American) equivalent of James Bond, she’s certainly vowed to protect US lives & interests. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/87 "2011-06-06T23:04:41Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I think it’s fighting the hypothetical to answer based on an assumption that Agent Bail is sworn to protect American lives when the OP does not tell us this is the case. **Skald** typically allows and sometimes encourages reasonable extrapolation in these kinds of threads. He said it was an American agency. U.S. Government employee is highly likely, otherwise \*\*Skald \*\*would have had whichever one he found hottest to be one of his minions/hookerbot models. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/88 "2011-06-07T00:01:35Z")
I don’t want to hijack the thread but maybe **Skald** could start an equivalent thread in which the choices aren’t Chinese and American but instead humans versus aliens on another planet that are vastly more numerous but just about the same intelligence as us and oddly similar in most ways. There have been many humanist type answers in this thread but no compelling reason for it in my opinion. It all comes down to ‘us versus them’ at some level. You can twist that in lots of different directions. Under some interpretations, you get PETA, in other you get Star Wars. Which one is right? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/89 "2011-06-07T00:11:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t think that’s fighting the hypothetical at all. I was certainly operating under the assumption that Bail had sworn such an oath when I wrote the OP. Are real government agents even sworn to protect American lives? A quick Google indicates that the actual oaths used by the US military don’t say anything about protecting American lives, but rather protecting and defending the Constitution and obeying orders ([http://www.history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html](http://www.history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html)). I don’t know what sort of oath CIA agents have to swear, but an obligation to save American lives whenever possible would seem likely to interfere with the ability of field agents to maintain their covers and carry out their other duties. It’s your hypothetical, so if you want to say she’s sworn to protect American lives then I’ll accept that, but it wasn’t in the OP and I wouldn’t make that assumption myself. > [@](#): > > And I don’t know how she can be working for American super-secret spy agency without working for the US government, and if she’s the (fictional American) equivalent of James Bond, she’s certainly vowed to protect US lives & interests. In a wild fictional scenario like this it seems possible that there might be a privately owned and operated super-secret spy agency that is “American” in the sense that it is based in the US and employs Americans. The lack of anything in the OP to make it clear that Bail was employed by the US government led me to wonder if you were actually planning some kind of “gotcha!” about her _not_ being a US government agent…especially since the OP _does_ specify that she’s a lesbian. It’s my (limited) understanding that while homosexuals are not barred from the CIA, being gay is considered a liability if one wants to work as a field agent. Anyway, as I said before the interests of the US government might very well involve saving Beijing. If she’s sworn to protect US interests then her oath might require her to let Wheeling get zapped. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/90 "2011-06-07T00:24:59Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Are real government agents even sworn to protect American lives? A quick Google indicates that the actual oaths used by the US military don’t say anything about protecting American lives, but rather protecting and defending the Constitution and obeying orders ([http://www.history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html](http://www.history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html)). I don’t know what sort of oath CIA agents have to swear, but an obligation to save American lives whenever possible would seem likely to interfere with the ability of field agents to maintain their covers and carry out their other duties. > > It’s your hypothetical, so if you want to say she’s sworn to protect American lives then I’ll accept that, but it wasn’t in the OP and I wouldn’t make that assumption myself. > In a wild fictional scenario like this it seems possible that there might be a privately owned and operated super-secret spy agency that is “American” in the sense that it is based in the US and employs Americans. The lack of anything in the OP to make it clear that Bail was employed by the US government led me to wonder if you were actually planning some kind of “gotcha!” about her _not_ being a US government agent…especially since the OP _does_ specify that she’s a lesbian. It’s my (limited) understanding that while homosexuals are not barred from the CIA, being gay is considered a liability if one wants to work as a field agent. > > Anyway, as I said before the interests of the US government might very well involve saving Beijing. If she’s sworn to protect US interests then her oath might require her to let Wheeling get zapped. Well, I’ve already written that I think (based on Chronos’ & a few others’ argument) that Bail has to save Beijing. I’ll concede that the specific oath “protect American lives” wasn’t mentioned in the OP and could be argued against, but since _every other poster_ clearly understood “American secret agent” to mean an operative of the United States government, I think it’s perverse to say it could mean anything else – just as, if I wrote “American soldier”, I would clearly mean “a member of the United States armed services,” not an employee of Xe (formerly Blackwater). Incidentally, do you realize that “Demetria” is just the feminine of “Demetrius” (Greek for James) and “Bail” is mean to hearken to Bond? Demetria Bail is just a female James Bond from Atlanta. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sundrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sundrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sundrop)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/91 "2011-06-07T00:27:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, I meant what I said there. The key is to look beyond the death rays themselves, to what comes after. Realistically, now: If Beijing is instantaneously destroyed by an unknown weapon, what’s the Chinese response going to be? Approximately 20 minutes after Beijing dies, so do Washington, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, and whatever the rest of the top N US cities are. The destruction of Wheeling, meanwhile, while still tragic, is likely to elicit a much slower and more measured response. With what? The Chinese don’t have, so far as we know, any ICBMs that can reach the west coast, let alone Chicago, Houston or the east coast. Their strategic nukes are primarily as a deterrent for close in hostilities. Also, Agent Bail would now be in possession of an orbiting death laser. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/92 "2011-06-07T01:27:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Well, I’ve already written that I think (based on Chronos’ & a few others’ argument) that Bail has to save Beijing. I’ll concede that the specific oath “protect American lives” wasn’t mentioned in the OP and could be argued against, but since _every other poster_ clearly understood “American secret agent” to mean an operative of the United States government, I think it’s perverse to say it could mean anything else – just as, if I wrote “American soldier”, I would clearly mean “a member of the United States armed services,” not an employee of Xe (formerly Blackwater). Hey, you’re the one who asked how she could work for an American super-secret spy agency without working for the US government. If you look back at my first post in this thread, I didn’t make a big deal about her maybe not being a US government employee. I mentioned this possibility only briefly, in the context of my bigger point about not making assumptions about what kind of oath she might have sworn. Since a number of posters said they were basing their answer on the belief that Bail was sworn to protect American lives, I felt it was worth pointing out that the OP does not say she had taken any such oath. As far as I know no one employed by the US government has to swear an oath to protect American lives, so even if you had spelled out that Bail was a US government operative then I would not have assumed that she had sworn such an oath. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/93 "2011-06-07T01:52:14Z")
Definitely nuke the small city and save the big one. Wait, what? Did you say Wheeling? :eek: Never mind. Beijing gets it. (the fact that I’m originally from Wheeling did not influence my decision at all… nope… not at all) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/94 "2011-06-07T02:04:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > your dirty words don’t scare me. I’m for us and against them, which you can call sociopathic nationalism if you like. Cool beans. I don’t really wonder why folks like me don’t hold on to power, and I assume you don’t wonder why folks like you get locked up in prison so often. Them’s the breaks. **Shagnasty** , if it were a choice between two equally sentient species, then yeah, I’d go for the higher population saving. “Us versus them” is loathsome thinking and gets us into all kinds of trouble as a species. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/95 "2011-06-07T02:11:27Z")
U.S. city. He’s employed to serve his country. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/96 "2011-06-07T02:29:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cool beans. I don’t really wonder why folks like me don’t hold on to power, and I assume you don’t wonder why folks like you get locked up in prison so often. I didn’t say anything about people like you “holding onto power.” I said something about the frequency (specifically, the lack thereof) of people like you being chosen as a leader. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/97 "2011-06-07T08:01:38Z")
Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the Virginians. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/98 "2011-06-07T08:35:15Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > This is easy - Beijing. This. I don’t really see how this is even a question. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/99 "2011-06-07T14:48:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Which city should Bail save? Beijing. Not only because of it having more people, but because this would be of greater benefit to the US too. Because now the Chinese _owe you one_, big time. And sure, there’s _realpolitik_ too, but next time the US asks for some tariff adjustments or some action on North Korea, the Chinese are not going to be able to just shrug it off. > [@](#): > > What should she do about the moll? I don’t understand? What would James Bond do? Do that, only with less penis. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445/100 "2011-06-07T15:30:34Z")
Beijing. This is easy because I live in Beijing and want to live. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-secret-agent-must-choose-between-saving-small-us-city-or-chinese-metropolis-what-to-do/584445.md?page=6)