# American soldier crosses into North Korea **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 18, 2023, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221 "2023-07-18T16:43:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/201 "2023-08-06T04:01:48Z")
Well, gold outranks silver in Olympic medals as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/202 "2023-08-06T04:07:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The other thing that really confuses me about the ranks is that gold outranks silver in the insignia. Which services and ranks is that true? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/203 "2023-08-06T04:29:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The other thing that really confuses me about the ranks is that gold outranks silver in the insignia. I think you’ve got that backwards. A major wears a gold oak leaf and a lieutenant colonel wears a silver oak leaf. An ensign wears a gold bar and a lieutenant JG wears a silver bar. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/204 "2023-08-06T04:41:49Z")
[Here](http://www.militarywives.com/index.php/why-does-silver-outrank-gold) is one take on it. > In 1836 the shoulder strap replaced the epaulette on field uniforms. It had a border of silver or gold depending on the color of the epaulette it replaced. The leaf and bars appeared at this time, but the colors were not fixed?officers wore gold insignia on silver-bordered shoulder straps and vice versa. In 1851 all epaulettes and shoulder strap borders became gold and the insignia on the epaulettes were silver. Majors and second lieutenants wore no rank insignia?they were distinguished only by the type of fringe on their epaulettes. Rank insignia on shoulder straps were silver for all officers down to and including lieutenant colonels; captains and first lieutenants wore gold insignia. > > When epaulettes were abolished in 1872 and replaced with shoulder knots which had no fringe, it was necessary to devise some insignia to distinguish the majors from second lieutenants. So the gold leaf was adopted to denote majors, and that’s why lieutenant colonels wear silver leaves and majors gold. At the same time the color of the bars for junior officers was changed to silver. The second lieutenant still wore no insignia, and was only distinguished by the shoulder strap or knot. > > Finally, in 1917 the second lieutenant got some “respect” and the Army decided to adopt a new insignia for him. The plan called for the least disruption to other rank insignia, so it was decided to follow the color precedent established in devising major’s insignia and adopt the gold bar for the second lieutenant. All Rights Reserved [MilitaryWives.com](http://MilitaryWives.com), Inc. [http://www.militarywives.com](http://www.militarywives.com) tldr: Tradition! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/205 "2023-08-06T05:37:38Z")
Sorry, late night typo. I meant that for instance, a butter bar (gold) lieutenant is **lower** in rank than the silver bar lieutenant. Anyway, someone above thread asked for the rank hijack to be dropped so I’ll drop it. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/206 "2023-08-06T16:09:08Z")
In the playlist I linked to upthread (post 183) there is a whole video on the subject (how silver came to outrank gold:, and I think a better explanation of why 2nd lieutenants got their gold bar in 1917: because the widespread use of combat uniforms erased the distinctions between officer and enlisted. It used to be that you could tell someone was _some_ kind of an officer just by the fact they wore a different uniform than enlisted. Someone wearing an officer’s uniform, but without rank insignia, was obviously a 2nd lieutenant. But when officer and enlisted wear the same uniform, how do you distinguish between the lowest grade of private and the lowest grade of officer? Anyway, the video is only 6:40 (with pictures!), so maybe [give it a watch if you’re interested](https://youtube.com/watch?v=etRrNETXVc0). ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/207 "2023-08-06T16:18:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Anyway, someone above thread asked for the rank hijack to be dropped so I’ll drop it. Yes, I would appreciate if the (interesting) sidebar on ranks and insignia could be taken to its own thread. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/208 "2023-08-06T18:56:58Z")
Well, as a gesture of good will, this article has a few more details on Private King’s troubles with the US Army and the ROK prior to his run across the border: > **[North Korea finally responds to Western officials over runaway American soldier](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/travis-king-north-korea-responds-un-american-soldier-rcna97914)** > > Travis King was due to be flown home to the United States following disciplinary action when he sprinted across the border and into the secretive state. > He faced [two allegations of assault in South Korea](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/travis-king-was-grieving-death-young-cousin-crossed-border-north-korea-rcna95173), and eventually pleaded guilty to one instance of assault and destroying public property for damaging a police car during **a profanity-laced tirade against Koreans** , according to court documents. Bolding mine. Good luck with that whole “living the rest of your life in Korea” thing, eh? > From May 24 to July 10 he served a sentence of hard labor at the Cheonan correctional facility in lieu of paying a fine, Yonhap news agency reported. I’d be curious to know how much the fine was. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/209 "2023-08-06T19:01:18Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I’d be curious to know how much the fine was. [₩](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_won)5 million ([US$](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar)3,950), according to Wikipedia. > **[Travis King](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_King)** > > Travis Travale King (born February 15, 2000) is a United States Army soldier who crossed over the Military Demarcation Line in the Joint Security Area (JSA) into North Korea on 18 July 2023 while on a civilian tour of the Korean Demilitarized Zone (DMZ). King was facing dishonorable discharge from the United States Army due to legal charges in South Korea, the country he was stationed in at the time of the crossing. > King was detained by North Korean authorities on 18 July 2023 and was released... ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/210 "2023-08-06T19:03:51Z")
Damn. Talk about criminalizing poverty. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/211 "2023-08-06T19:32:30Z")
So 45 days’ hard labor in effect pays $3950. About $87/day. I bet he earned it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/212 "2023-08-06T19:38:21Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I’d be curious to know how much the fine was. I’m curious what “hard labor” is. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/213 "2023-08-06T19:56:49Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > So 45 days’ hard labor in effect pays $3950. About $87/day. Also cost of food, lodging, maintenance, etc. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/214 "2023-08-06T20:01:17Z")
@hajario: I have no direct experience w Korea, so can’t hazard a guess. I will suggest though that if 45 days of that treatment didn’t incentivize him to GTFO of Korea in general and get back to the USA, warts and all, I don’t know what would. That he chose to more-than-double down by dashing into NK, a place he almost had to know was even nastier than an SK prison indicates he was either wacko, drunk/high, or utterly hopeless at adult-style decision-making. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/215 "2023-08-07T22:15:42Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > What would the North Koreans be able to discover by debriefing/interrogating him? Cheat codes to Super Mario Kart. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/216 "2023-08-16T03:08:36Z")
Update from CNN [https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/15/asia/north-korea-travis-king-third-country-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/15/asia/north-korea-travis-king-third-country-intl/index.html) Now granted, I take anything coming out of NK with a huge cube of salt, but this quote: > A statement from the state-run Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) claimed King had expressed “his willingness to seek refugee” in North Korea or a third country. It also claimed King confessed that he had decided to enter North Korea as “he harbored ill feeling against inhuman maltreatment and racial discrimination within the U.S. Army.” Wouldn’t be inconsistent with the sort of impulse driven, universally angry and authority-intolerant individual that has been mentioned in all reporting to date. Of course, it very possibly has true elements as well, in that the treatment of soldiers isn’t want I would consider humane for a civilian, but, well, it is exactly what you sign up for. And I’m sure there’s still plenty of prejudice lingering in the US military (although probably still better than the sexism in all the armed forces based on recent reporting!). And that leaves out ascribing racial motivations to treatment incurred from being insubordinate. Anyway. Any bets on what third party would give him sanctuary for a media win? As stated upthread, I don’t think he has anything else to offer, and suspect that as soon as his usefulness is ended, he’ll get to enjoy being a disrespected second class citizen (if that!) wherever he ends up… ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/217 "2023-08-16T05:01:19Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Any bets on what third party would give him sanctuary for a media win? Not that I think it’s likely, but if NK does decide to pass on him, then I suppose Russia would be a good choice. Failing that, one of the nations that abstained from UN General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4 (using it as an imperfect proxy for Russia-aligned, or at least Russia-curious, states): > **[United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/4)** > > United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES‑11/4 is the fourth resolution of the eleventh emergency special session of the United Nations General Assembly, adopted on 12 October 2022, following Resolution ES-11/3 which was adopted on 7 April 2022. > In resolution ES‑11/4, the General Assembly declares that the referendums held in the Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts, which were conducted under disputed circumstances and unrecognized by the international community, as well as... ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/218 "2023-08-16T05:14:02Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Update from CNN > > [https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/15/asia/north-korea-travis-king-third-country-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/15/asia/north-korea-travis-king-third-country-intl/index.html) > > Now granted, I take anything coming out of NK with a huge cube of salt, but this quote: > > > A statement from the state-run Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) claimed King had expressed “his willingness to seek refugee” in North Korea or a third country. It also claimed King confessed that he had decided to enter North Korea as “he harbored ill feeling against inhuman maltreatment and racial discrimination within the U.S. Army.” > > Wouldn’t be inconsistent with the sort of impulse driven, universally angry and authority-intolerant individual that has been mentioned in all reporting to date. Of course, it very possibly has true elements as well, in that the treatment of soldiers isn’t want I would consider humane for a civilian, but, well, it is exactly what you sign up for. And I’m sure there’s still plenty of prejudice lingering in the US military (although probably still better than the sexism in all the armed forces based on recent reporting!). > > And that leaves out ascribing racial motivations to treatment incurred from being insubordinate. If he was being sent back to the states to be punished it might make sense. He was already punished and was only being sent back to be discharged. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/219 "2023-08-16T14:21:39Z")
Oh, agreed. I was trying to skate the boundary between NK propaganda (a given), the prior reporting on the soldier’s anger/authority issues, and any possible _legitimate_ grievances that may or may not have tied into the soldier’s anger. Too many possibilities, although when your response to being forced out of the service (not as I understand it a longer stay in prison or the equivalent) running away to NK does NOT strike me as the actions of a fully rational individual. I keep having to remind myself that I was an idiot (better than most IMHO, and certainly smarter/more emotionally mature than to consider a stunt like this) as a young man as well though. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/220 "2023-08-16T20:43:08Z")
Quote from North Korean media: [press release on result of intermediate investigation on US GI Travis King](https://kcnawatch.org/newstream/1692155021-412126778/kcna-press-release-on-result-of-intermediate-investigation-on-us-gi-travis-king/) > [@](#): > > Saying he was disillusioned at the unequal American society, he expressed his will to seek political asylum either in the DPRK or in third country. > > The investigation continues. The phrase “the investigation continues” would seem to suggest they haven’t decided if they will accept the asylum claim. If true that he seeks asylum, that seems to be his right: [EU Legal Opinion](https://www.justsecurity.org/17696/u-s-military-defectors-apply-asylum-eu-advocate-general-sharpston-offers-legal-opinion/) > [@](#): > > . . . non-combat military personnel may claim asylum in the EU if they are at risk of prosecution or punishment for refusing to perform military service, where such service might involve the commission of war crimes. If a U.S. military member can ask for asylum, it should be up to the country they are seeking asylum in to decide if claimed racism, or anything else, is a good enough reason. And I don’t have problem with it in peacetime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221.md?page=12)