# American soldier crosses into North Korea **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 18, 2023, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221 "2023-07-18T16:43:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/121 "2023-07-22T18:23:15Z")
I don’t think it’s worth a hijack, but I think we’d agree that engaging in a sexual relationship without meaningful consent is rape. Two people making the best of a bad situation with mutual consent is possible. Equally, it’s possible that being forced into the relationship means that one or both never consents. I just don’t think it’s possible to call this without knowing how they came to a sexual relationship: if they both agreed, it’s not rape. If one did not freely consent, it’s rape. I don’t think we can know with the information we have. It’s a serious enough allegation that I think it’s best not to presume guilt without evidence, and the presence of children isn’t evidence of why they had sex. But it’s definitely a strong possibility, so not something I want to dismiss out of hand (I was on my phone earlier, so my response wasn’t as nuanced as it should have been). ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/122 "2023-07-22T18:23:41Z")
If you go to YouTube there are many videos about the previous defections. The one on Biographics is one of the best. Although the title only mentions James Dresnok it goes into all four. James Dresnok:The US soldier who defected to North Korea. The marriages are well detailed. Dresnok appears to have developed a solid relationship with his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/123 "2023-07-22T18:35:46Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > And I’m going to go exactly the other way. She was kidnapped to be a bride. Absent extraordinary evidence to the contrary, I take it as presumptive that her “husband” could not reasonably have ascertained meaningful consent on her part under such circumstances. > > It’s like something out of _The Handmaid’s Tale_. Some real Gilead-level shit. I’m just going to point out that so far as I know the _men_ in these forced marriages do not consent and are not given choice, either. Which in no way diminishes the horror of being kidnapped and forced into a marriage for the women. When someone pulls out a gun and says “you two are going to be married and have sex and in all ways behave as a loving couple or you’ll be executed” neither of the two people in that couple can be said to be consenting. It’s the guy(s) with the gun(s) who are committing the abuse. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/124 "2023-07-22T19:16:50Z")
I read Jenkin’s book many years ago. I don’t recall the details of his descriptions of their various marriages. I do know that his reports about Dresnock were of a violent man who lacked any conscience. When ordered to beat his fellow Americans he seemed to be enjoying himself. As for the women, marrying these men was a way to survive in a hellish situation. That is not the same as consent. By every available measure, Jenkins and his wife truly loved one another. After she escaped home to Japan he joined her there and they lived out their lives together. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/125 "2023-07-22T19:19:40Z")
But they were all no better than well-fed slaves in a breeding program. The government wanted Western-looking spies, and it was their job to produce them. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/126 "2023-07-22T20:08:46Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > The soldiers stationed there are well trained, but this guy wasn’t one of those “tip of the spear” kind of guys if I had to guess. Anyone know his MOS? > > I think the breakdown at one level occurred in this gentleman’s chain of command, they dropped the ball by not ensuring his happy ass was physically on the plane. I’d also wonder about the level of screening for the DMZ tours, he travelled as a “civilian”, but technically this was not the case. He’s a 19D Cavalry Scout. He was certainly a tip of the spear kind of guy. At least his MOS is. > [@Common\_Tater](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > It’s 6 months to get the automatic promotion from E-1 to E-2 and another 6 months to go to E-3. > > Right, but as I recall they were promoting people to E2 faster than that, not sure why, but they did. > > Retention and recruitment for the armed services has recently again become a problem, when that happens they start to accept individuals who may not be a good fit. Time in grade can be waived. From what I remember you only get a couple of those waivers for your career so you don’t want to blow them too early. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/127 "2023-07-22T20:37:32Z")
Yes, exactly. If a government says “Have sex with this woman. If you don’t you will be tortured until you do” I don’t think the man is the rapist. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/128 "2023-07-22T20:44:26Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > He’s a 19D Cavalry Scout. He was certainly a tip of the spear kind of guy. At least his MOS is. Good to know. That MOS is “tip of spear”, but it’s also not full of useful info for NK intel. Imagine instead King had a job more like this other shining example of responsible youthful and low-ranking behavior: > **[Jack Teixeira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Teixeira)** > > Jack Douglas Teixeira (/teɪˈʃɛərə/ tay-SHAIR-ə; born December 2001) is an American airman in the 102nd Intelligence Wing of the Massachusetts Air National Guard. In April 2023, following an investigation into the removal and disclosure of hundreds of classified Pentagon documents, Teixeira was arrested by FBI agents and charged with unauthorized retention and transmission of national defense information in violation of the Espionage Act of 1917 and unauthorized removal and retention of classi... ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/129 "2023-07-22T20:50:52Z")
It would be useful to know where he was stationed, and how long he was in Korea. Where was he arrested? I assume Itaewon or something like that. What I was getting at earlier, someone of his age may only be dimly aware of what the deal is with North/South Korea. It would almost seem to be one or the other - either no clue whatsoever, or, kind of a YOLO thing and “let’s cause some trouble ha ha ha!”. Which in fact, witnesses at the JSA reported as he sprinted across the border itself. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/130 "2023-07-22T21:15:20Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > He’s a 19D Cavalry Scout. He was certainly a tip of the spear kind of guy. At least his MOS is. > > Good to know. That MOS is “tip of spear”, but it’s also not full of useful info for NK intel. Imagine instead King had a job more like this other shining example of responsible youthful and low-ranking behavior: > [Jack Teixeira - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Teixeira) Oh yeah, he’s got nothing for them except his propaganda uses. He doesn’t know anything. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/131 "2023-07-22T22:02:16Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Yes, exactly. If a government says “Have sex with this woman. If you don’t you will be tortured until you do” I don’t think the man is the rapist. He was in North Korea of his own accord, and apparently wielded power over other defectors as well. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/132 "2023-07-23T04:39:47Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > In a time when we aren’t in active war, it seems to me that U.S. military members are free to defect. That’s why no U.S. or South Korean soldier was going to shoot him in the back while he ran to NK. Why can’t we respect his decision? Both the DPRK and the UNC forces at the Joint Security Area are unarmed. > [@Smapti](#): > > From the sound of it, he wasn’t at the DMZ as part of his official duties - he was in one of the tour groups that the Army takes people on that get to visit the JSA and some of the watch towers and attempted North Korean tunnels, like you see in this video. I think the Army doesn’t actually conduct such tours. The most popular, apparently, is the tour run by the USO. > [@Dorjan](#): > > That was different. In NK’s eyes, Otto committed a grave crime while in NK on a tour. A defection of a US soldier is a propaganda win for them, they aren’t going to torture the guy. I see no reason whatsoever to accept NK’s version of that incident. > [@susan](#): > > He already did his SK time (other than any SK penalty for running to NK, if that’s a crime). It’s definitely a crime for South Korean citizens. Unsurprisingly, it’s also an offense under military law for US service members, so he will face that issue if returned. > [@TruCelt](#): > > Or send him to the camp? He will never see even the outside of the camps. There is no way the NKs will expose their people to a source of outside information. > [@hajario](#): > > Fair enough. I think at the very least he was under a lot of stress and his decision was rash although there was certainly some forethought. The post I was responding to was just fucking disgusting though. IMHO, he found what, in his mind, was the biggest way to embarrass the Army for “What the Army did to him”. > [@Magiver](#): > > Is what he did considered a defection? In which case, is he still an American citizen? Or does he have to make a formal declaration? > > If it’s a military policy of no man left behind does that include defectors? Of course he’s a citizen until either he formally renounces citizenship at a US consulate as the law requires or his citizenship is revoked legally. There is no such facility in North Korea. Obviously there is no policy requiring “leave nobody behind”. First, it’s unworkable. Second, one runs a very real chance of sacrificing more people than one brings back. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Right now he’s an AWOL dumbass with a pending UCMJ prosecution. Nothing more exciting than that. Deserter dumbass. > [@Common\_Tater](#): > > I think the breakdown at one level occurred in this gentleman’s chain of command, they dropped the ball by not ensuring his happy ass was physically on the plane. The military escorts could not go through the airport security and immigration procedures. King was not being deported by the SK government. Once SK was finished with him, they returned him to USFK control as required by treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/133 "2023-07-23T04:54:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Both the DPRK and the UNC forces at the Joint Security Area are unarmed. Does this refer to not having firearms. Admittedly my story is dated, but in the incident I mentioned in the 70’s the NK soldiers killed the two Americans with the axes of the laborers who were tasked to cut down trees at the DMZ. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/134 "2023-07-23T05:12:55Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > Both the DPRK and the UNC forces at the Joint Security Area are unarmed. > > Does this refer to not having firearms. Admittedly my story is dated, but in the incident I mentioned in the 70’s the NK soldiers killed the two Americans with the axes of the laborers who were tasked to cut down trees at the DMZ. The JSA is not not the DMZ. The JSA is only the “Truce Village” where negotiations happen and the two sides come face to face. You know, the place where Trump took a stroll with his bestie. The DMZ is the entire border. There are certainly weapons along the DMZ along with a shit load of mines. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/135 "2023-07-23T05:21:01Z")
But the axe murder incident _did_ happen in the JSA. And part of how it was able to happen was that at the time, the demarcation line between North and South wasn’t applied within the JSA, making the JSA a sort of bubble where both sides could occupy positions and intermix (at least in theory) anywhere within it. They only extended the demarcation line into the JSA itself, giving us our modern view of sentries facing off, after the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/136 "2023-07-23T05:30:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I think the Army doesn’t actually conduct such tours. The most popular, apparently, is the tour run by the USO. The videos I’ve seen of DMZ tours always have what appears to be a soldier in uniform giving the tour which is apparently done from a script (DPRK is always exclusively referred to as “Communist North Korea” for instance), so I assume the Army is at least in some way involved with the USO tours beyond just giving them permission to be there. I’ve also noted that they seem to be very particular about what and when you can photograph - you can take pictures into North Korea from the JSA, but NOT of the JSA looking south, for instance, and I don’t believe they allow photography in the tunnels. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/137 "2023-07-23T08:36:39Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The JSA is not not the DMZ. The JSA is only the “Truce Village” where negotiations happen and the two sides come face to face. And the truce village is where PV2 King decided to make international headlines. > [@](#): > > You know, the place where Trump took a stroll with his bestie. Bestie? They’re in love, according to Mister Orangeman. I refer to NK’s dictator as America’s wannabe dictator’s loverboy now. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/138 "2023-07-23T13:12:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@Common\_Tater](#): > > > > I think the breakdown at one level occurred in this gentleman’s chain of command, they dropped the ball by not ensuring his happy ass was physically on the plane. > > The military escorts could not go through the airport security and immigration procedures. King was not being deported by the SK government. Once SK was finished with him, they returned him to USFK control as required by treaty. I agree that this is how it happened. Because the US escorts were not traveling with King he was essentially released to his own temporary recognizance at the beginning of pre-departure immigration / security, with the military trusting he’d arrive on his own at the destination as expected. And he’d be re-escorted from there to Fort Whatever. We transport unescorted people who are picked up by police or immigration agents at the destination rather frequently. This is both domestically and internationally in either direction. We also transport no-kidding prisoners who are restrained and never more than arm’s reach from an armed LEO of some flavor. The military could have chosen to treat King as a flight-, safety-, or security risk and detailed two escorts to physically accompany him to his final destination in the USA. They did not. I’m going to suggest that in the vast, vast majority of cases unescorted service members show up as expected to face their music. So the Army’s decision wasn’t _prima facie_ a silly one. But it was a decision. One that worked out badly for them. Other than PV2 King’s family, not a lot of people are too worked up over trying to get him back. He’s just one more burr under the collective saddle of US/NK relations. And not a very big burr. Just the newest. So far; the week is yet young. ---
**Author:** ![Digger11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Digger11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digger11)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/139 "2023-07-23T14:27:51Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > All this has me wondering what training US troops are given about NK when they are stationed near the DMZ. > > How much do they know about conditions up there? Are they only told the DMZ safety procedures, or do they get a true picture of life in NK? Even though there have been occasional defectors, I seriously question whether **anybody** outside of NK knows enough about the state of the country to get a genuine “true picture” of life there. Sure, we know some of the “big stuff” – famines, etc. But that isn’t necessarily the whole story. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/140 "2023-07-23T15:59:23Z")
Details don’t really matter though. I’d say very few Americans know or think they know absolutely zero about NK. Whether from recent explicit official training or from the osmosis of growing up in the USA over the last 20-ish years, they know the broad outlines: > It’s a shitty place that is actively hostile to America and to all Americans. Laws, rules, and protections don’t apply there to their own citizens, much less to you. > > Danger Will Robinson, Danger! That’s all any trooper or legitimate tourist needs to know about NK to make a sensible decision if they’re of sound mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221.md?page=8)