# American soldier crosses into North Korea **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 18, 2023, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221 "2023-07-18T16:43:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/141 "2023-07-23T17:16:03Z")
More details are being revealed about this guy’s history. Apparently he was stationed at Camp Bonifas basically right on the border, or near enough. He was a problem child and had missed morning roll call or head count formations before. This is a big deal in the military. The pattern I’m sensing is a certain level of mischievousness or willful misconduct or whatever. It takes work to get incarcerated, there are status of forces agreements between the military. Ordinarily they are more than content to let the military handle any punishment for minor things but they do have a wing in their prison set aside for US military folks. They allow US personnel to periodically visit and inspect, but make no mistake they are in a South Korean prison. One thing I was told by a local Korean, maybe this only applies to the smaller jails, the prisoner is responsible for his own food, basically. He suggested that it is important to have good relations with friends and family, because otherwise it is much more difficult if they don’t have money to pay for meals. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/142 "2023-07-23T17:20:31Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > The pattern I’m sensing is a certain level of mischievousness or willful misconduct or whatever. It takes work to get incarcerated, there are status of forces agreements between the military. You have to be a real Travesty King. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/143 "2023-07-24T01:47:39Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > The pattern I’m sensing is a certain level of mischievousness or willful misconduct or whatever. It takes work to get incarcerated, there are status of forces agreements between the military. The Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) is a treaty between the United States and the Republic of Korea, not between the militaries. > [@](#): > > Ordinarily they are more than content to let the military handle any punishment for minor things It’s been some years now that “minor things” which are not considered as occurring during the performance of one’s official duties are relinquished to the USFK for disposition. That’s because any misbehavior off base in South Korea is not minor. > [@](#): > > but they do have a wing in their prison set aside for US military folks. The wing is for all foreigners incarcerated in South Korea, not just USFK personnel who get up close and personal with South Korea’s judicial system. > [@](#): > > They allow US personnel to periodically visit and inspect, but make no mistake they are in a South Korean prison. The SOFA _requires_ periodic command visits, inspection, chaplain visit if requested by the prisoner, and provision of health and welfare items. > [@](#): > > One thing I was told by a local Korean, maybe this only applies to the smaller jails, the prisoner is responsible for his own food, basically. He suggested that it is important to have good relations with friends and family, because otherwise it is much more difficult if they don’t have money to pay for meals. IIRC (not from personal experience, mind you), the prisoner is responsible for additional foodstuffs on top of what is provided by the prison. The prisoner is not going to be starved to death because he doesn’t have the wherewithal to get food from the outside. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/144 "2023-07-24T02:04:07Z")
Mea Culpa, for not being pedantic enough! I do need to brush up on that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/145 "2023-07-24T02:29:31Z")
Wait, he was scheduled to fly back on a civilian airliner? I thought all of our GIs overseas went there and back on military flights. I know that both my father and my uncle, during their service, got some nice (brief) vacations in exotic places while on leave, traveling on military planes that happened to have a few free seats. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/146 "2023-07-24T02:35:11Z")
I’ve heard the same thing about Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/147 "2023-07-24T02:59:35Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > But the axe murder incident _did_ happen in the JSA. And part of how it was able to happen was that at the time, the demarcation line between North and South wasn’t applied within the JSA, making the JSA a sort of bubble where both sides could occupy positions and intermix (at least in theory) anywhere within it. They only extended the demarcation line into the JSA itself, giving us our modern view of sentries facing off, after the incident. You’re correct I remembered wrong. It was on the edge of the JSA near the Bridge of No Return. Not the area you see filmed most of the time but still part of the JSA. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/148 "2023-07-24T03:10:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, he was scheduled to fly back on a civilian airliner? I thought all of our GIs overseas went there and back on military flights. > > I know that both my father and my uncle, during their service, got some nice (brief) vacations in exotic places while on leave, traveling on military planes that happened to have a few free seats. Normal PCS (permanent change of station) moves are on commercial flights. Sometimes from overseas they are military charter flights on civilian airlines. Even when I was deployed to Iraq we flew on a civilian plane from Texas to Kuwait. The only part of the flight that was on an Air Force transport was from Kuwait to Baghdad. Space A flights like you are describing are often just cargo planes with a few extra seats. From what I could gather this guy wasn’t under arrest. He had already been to Korean court and was fined for his crimes. The Army was sending him home to kick him out of the Army. Administrative penalties not criminal. If it was agreed under the SOFA that he be tried in Korean court then the Army wouldn’t also charge him criminally. They would just chapter him out, probably on a less than honorable discharge. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/149 "2023-07-24T03:20:02Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > If it was agreed under the SOFA that he be tried in Korean court then the Army wouldn’t also charge him criminally. They would just chapter him out, probably on a less than honorable discharge. Right. The type of discharge is determined by court-martial (for Dishonorable and Bad Conduct Discharges) or administrative action such as “being chaptered out”. The character of service is determined by a matrix in the DOD separation instruction based. The South Korean civilian authorities were finished with him–arrested, tried, incarcerated, and released–so he was yet again the US Army’s problem. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/150 "2023-07-24T11:23:26Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > The pattern I’m sensing is a certain level of mischievousness or willful misconduct or whatever. Does “whatever” include mental illness? I regularly encounter people I think act willfully in certain ways, only to be told that is a manifestation of some pathology. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/151 "2023-07-24T11:33:38Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > He has a very troubled history. I’m surprised the military let him in in the first place. “Troubled history” applies to a lot of people who enlist in the military, in various ways. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/152 "2023-07-24T11:41:21Z")
Or who are even sent to the military to “straighten them up.” I’m not sure if that’s as common as it used to be though. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/153 "2023-07-24T13:38:16Z")
Sent by whom? Army or jail might have been a thing 50-60 years ago. It hasn’t been for a long time (if ever). > The Army’s Recruiting Regulation, 601-210, paragraph 4-8b: states that any “applicant who, as a condition for any civil conviction or adverse disposition or any other reason through a civil or criminal court, is ordered or subjected to a sentence that implies or imposes enlistment into the Armed Forces of the United States is not eligible for enlistment.” ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/154 "2023-07-24T13:57:03Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Mea Culpa, for not being pedantic enough! This is basically a backhanded way of calling Monty pedantic. Don’t insult others outside of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/155 "2023-07-24T14:53:18Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Sent by whom? Army or jail might have been a thing 50-60 years ago. It hasn’t been for a long time (if ever). It hasn’t been a thing in decades but it used to happen. It happened to my friend’s father who was in a street gang. He went to Korea during the war and then retired from the military 20+ years later. He said it saved his life. Jerry Garcia stole his mother’s car at 17 in 1960 and was given the choice of Army or jail. He was about the worst recruit ever and was kicked out after less than a year. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/156 "2023-07-24T15:31:53Z")
There have always been anecdotes about it but any documented cases of a judge ordering it? I’m not dismissing it. It’s probably something that used to happen at some point which caused the regulation to be made. Just as often someone thinking they needed to get out of their situation before they got into legal trouble morphs into “I had to join or go to jail” when they get older. It has certainly been prohibited for many decades at this point. Any criminal convictions on your record will prohibit you from joining. It is possible to get a waiver for that but it has to be signed off at a high level. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/157 "2023-07-24T15:37:13Z")
It also might not have been part of the formal paperwork. I can imagine a judge telling a defendant “Well, now, son, if you were to join the Army, I just might be more lenient”. It doesn’t officially happen now, and even back in the day the military probably frowned on it (you don’t get very high quality recruits that way). But lots of things in history have been officially disallowed or discouraged, but happened anyway off the books. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/158 "2023-07-24T15:38:45Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > Apparently he’d been facing some sort of disciplinary action, but how can ANYONE think this is a good solution to your problems? Well, if he handled all of his other decision making this badly, it’s easy to see why he is in a world of trouble with his own military. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/159 "2023-07-24T15:41:09Z")
I can imagine it being more common in the draft era, particularly during times when military service was something to be gotten out of, rather than gotten into. Similarly, I can imagine it was harder to get kicked out of the military during the same era. One of many reasons I think a draft could be disastrous in the modern US military. We’re used to troublemakers, but not to whole units of unwilling conscripts anymore (or even just people “volunteering” in the hopes of getting a better job than if they had waited to be conscripted, but no intention to stick around any longer than absolutely necessary). It’s a discipline problem no one now serving has ever had to wrap their minds around. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221/160 "2023-07-24T16:05:13Z")
There was a thread on this topic a few years back [The Military saving wayward youth - how true? - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-saving-wayward-youth-how-true/822430) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-soldier-crosses-into-north-korea/987221.md?page=9)