# Americans are waking up about Iraq! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484 "2003-07-01T02:09:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/61 "2003-07-02T13:11:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tagos \* > \*\*Crap, arrogant damn crap. You’ve had the history of US involvement explained in countless threads. It’s their country and if they wanted to get rid of a US installed puppet it’s their right. Allowed indeed. > > This sentence sums up the arrogant presumption and pig shit thick ignorance of the Ugly American, here personified by December, yet again. \*\* From a moral standpoint, you may be right. I offered this as an example of an intelligence failure. Carter was pursuing America’s best interest, and he got it wrong. He didn’t think the new government would be as bad as it turned out to be. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/62 "2003-07-02T13:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > The White House may not have knowing engaged in misrepresentations, but then they have engaged in shoddy vetting of evidence in a grave matter related to national security… You’re forgetting the much more likely option of _willful ignorance_, which is far more morally culpable than mere negligence. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/63 "2003-07-02T13:22:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tagos \* > \*\*Crap, arrogant damn crap. You’ve had the history of US involvement explained in countless threads. It’s their country and if they wanted to get rid of a US installed puppet it’s their right. Allowed indeed. > > This sentence sums up the arrogant presumption and pig shit thick ignorance of the Ugly American, here personified by December, yet again. \*\* From a moral POV you have a fair point, **tagos**. However, this was a significant intelligence failure. We didn’t realize just how bad the new government would be ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/64 "2003-07-02T13:31:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > The Clinton Administration supposedly turned down more than one opportunity to capture OBL. [Are you conveniently forgetting someone, by any chance?](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20030625_580.html) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/65 "2003-07-02T13:42:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*[Are you conveniently forgetting someone, by any chance?](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20030625_580.html) \*\* minty you know very well that only “Liberals” make unforgiveable mistakes, as they are evil. “Conservatives” however are almost always right, and when an error or policy oversight was made, it was (a) probably really a “liberal’s” fault (b) porbably for a really good reason, although that reason may be secret. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/66 "2003-07-02T13:43:53Z")
While we’re at it let’s not forget the pres admins who approved the sale of chem/bio weapon components to Hussein in the first place. BUT, since our intelligence agencies **caught the forgeries** _AND_ **notified the administration** some ten months beofre the admin presented them to the public it not really an intelligence failure so much as an _administration_ failure. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/67 "2003-07-02T15:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > However, he [Clinton] didn’t even notice that al Qaeda was making war on the US. Where are you getting this garbage, **december**? After the embassy bombings in 1998, Clinton put together an intelligence and military operation [solely designed to find and kill](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A62725-2001Dec18¬Found=true) Osama bin Laden and his henchmen. You should be asking how and why American [Predator drones](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/attack/main560293.shtml) were not redeployed over Afghanistan after the winter winds subsided in March, 2001, despite several possible identifications of bin Laden the previous year (bin Laden was still moving around too much to target him with sub-launched missiles, but the Clinton administration kept two subs waiting in the Indian Ocean just in case). Bush administration officials tabled the idea of using hellfire-armed Predators against bin Laden on September 4, 2001. Both the Clinton and Bush administrations have been looking for bin Laden for approximately two and a half years now. But for seven months in 2001, someone wasn’t looking all that damned hard, and it wasn’t Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/68 "2003-07-02T23:06:14Z")
I used to think that conservatives were rather stiff and inflexible. How could I have been so wrong? It has been proven here, beyond any doubt, that no one is as flexible as a conservative when bending over backwards for The Leader. **december** , why don’t you just simplify the matter, why put yourself through the difficulty of finding rationalizations that fall apart like wet toilet paper under the merest scrutiny? Why not just say that GeeDubya is _messach_, Sir Galahad and Winston Churchill all rolled up into one? Nothing he does can be wrong, because that is a contradiction in terms. If it seems wrong at the moment, that is only because the True Purpose has yet to come to light. It has come to pass, and has been revealed. It looked as though the true purpose was protecting the US from evil machinations, but, no, now it can be revealed! The true purpose was to free the Iraqi people! That way, it doesn’t matter if what GeeDubya says is factually true or not, it will _become_ true when the time is right, and the Will of Himself is revealed, even unto the unbelievers. You are so close now to the Faith that Surpasseth All Understanding, not even a leap of faith is required, merely a hop, or a skip. You used to think you were an athiest. But you’re a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/69 "2003-07-02T23:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* > You used to think you were an athiest. But you’re a Republican. \*\* Ahem. _I’m_ a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/70 "2003-07-02T23:28:24Z")
> [@](#): > > However, he [Clinton] didn’t even notice that al Qaeda was making war on the US. Don’t you remember when Clinton bombed the Sudanese pharmaceutical plant to keep Osama bin Laden from giving VX to Saddam Hussein? Don’t you remember back when it was al Qaeda who had the WoMD and was trying to supply Iraq? My how times change. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/71 "2003-07-02T23:28:56Z")
You have my heartfelt condolences. Judging from the probity of your posts, you must be that most vanishinly rare of Republicans, the honest conservative, previously believed extinct, but really only as rare as an albino crow. In my youth, I was similarly afflicted, smitten with Goldwater and later fell into full-blown Objectivism. Only a stern regimen of sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll saved me, and only just. Of course, this is not a curative that I can recommend for just anyone, it was my salvation, it might very well kill a weaker man. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/72 "2003-07-02T23:50:02Z")
There’re probably more than you think. GHWB is a very prominent example of Repubs who were against invading Iraq the way that we did. I don’t think that a distate for being misled is a partisan issue. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/73 "2003-07-02T23:59:48Z")
I had to look up probity. thanX ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/74 "2003-07-03T01:18:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*…I don’t think that a distate for being misled is a partisan issue. \*\* From your lips to the ears of Allah. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484/75 "2003-07-03T01:42:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > I offered this as an example of an intelligence failure. Carter was pursuing America’s best interest, and he got it wrong. He didn’t think the new government would be as bad as it turned out to be. \*\* Or maybe he thought that intervention of the kind you suggest would merely make the situation worse. If an earlier US government hadn’t acted to remove Mossadegh, after all, it’s doubtful we would have ever had to deal with Khomeini. If the Iranian people wanted a radical Islamic government, how long do you suppose Washington could have held them back? How much worse do you think the flood would have been when the dam finally burst? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-are-waking-up-about-iraq/185484.md?page=3)