# Americans Condone Rape of Iraqi Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630 "2004-07-17T22:34:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/81 "2004-07-19T16:42:29Z")
Yes **Liberal** and I am not talking about those few of us who go out of our way to be informed and find out what’s going on. I’m talking about the - well, the teeming millions who don’t read the _New Yorker._ I know you are aware of the difference between when a story “breaks” and when other outlets pick up on it and bring it from fringe news-junkie talk to mainstream water-cooler talk. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/82 "2004-07-19T17:44:00Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > What in the name of Christ was their goal in recording it for posterity? Hersh’s sources suggest that it’s calculated to [coerce people](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact) into becoming intelligence sources. > [@](#): > > The notion that Arabs are particularly vulnerable to sexual humiliation became a talking point among pro-war Washington conservatives in the months before the March, 2003, invasion of Iraq. One book that was frequently cited was “The Arab Mind” a study of Arab culture and psychology, first published in 1973, by Raphael Patai. […] > > Patai wrote […] “any indication of homosexual leanings, as with all other expressions of sexuality, is never given any publicity. These are private affairs and remain in private.” The Patai book, an academic told me, was “the bible of the neocons on Arab behavior." In their discussions, he said, two themes emerged–“one, that Arabs only understand force and, two, that the biggest weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation.” > > The government consultant said that there may have been a serious goal, in the beginning, behind the sexual humiliation and the posed photographs. It was thought that some prisoners would do anything—including spying on their associates—to avoid dissemination of the shameful photos to family and friends. The government consultant said, “I was told that the purpose of the photographs was to create an army of informants, people you could insert back in the population.” This sounds sadly plausible to me. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/83 "2004-07-19T21:31:35Z")
Oh, lovely. Not only rape, torture and murder, but blackmail as well. \*o/`My country sea to sea, what the hell’s become of thee? The scandals cling. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim’s pride, Fallen down the mountainside. The shame does sting.o/`\* ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/84 "2004-07-19T21:55:05Z")
I made a similar argument, I believe to Diogenes, about the tape Michael Moore had decided to use in his film and turn over to authorities. Whoever argued against me maintained that the film’s footage of a _possibly_ simulated erection of an Iraqi man being stroked (or poked, or pointed at) by an American man was basically no big deal. I argued that for Muslims, such things that might seem trivial to us are indeed a big deal. I would appreciate a reconsideration of that argument by whoever disagreed. I still believe that it makes sense, just as it does in the quote from Hersh’s source. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/85 "2004-07-19T21:57:13Z")
Correction: “and turn over” should be “rather than turn over”. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/86 "2004-07-19T22:01:57Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Hersh’s sources suggest that it’s calculated to [coerce people](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact) into becoming intelligence sources.This sounds sadly plausible to me. Seems plausible to me too, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/87 "2004-07-19T22:20:16Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I made a similar argument, I believe to Diogenes, about the tape Michael Moore had decided to use in his film and turn over to authorities. Whoever argued against me maintained that the film’s footage of a _possibly_ simulated erection of an Iraqi man being stroked (or poked, or pointed at) by an American man was basically no big deal. I argued that for Muslims, such things that might seem trivial to us are indeed a big deal. I would appreciate a reconsideration of that argument by whoever disagreed. I still believe that it makes sense, just as it does in the quote from Hersh’s source. It makes sense in the context of the systematic abuse such as was seen in the notorious photos. The incident in F9/11 however did not appear in any way so- calculated or intended to achieve any particular result. It just looked a like a thoughtless and spontaneous act of bravado by a young soldier amped up on adrenaline. I personally was more offended by the use of the epithet, “Ali Baba” than I was by the quick poke at the blanket. The whole thing was very quick and casual. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/88 "2004-07-19T23:14:37Z")
**Liberal** , I can’t imagine that anyone would think the “Has Ali Baba still got a hard-on?” clip was something that ought to be rushed to the military authorities, especially since it was in the can before the prisoner abuse scandal broke. I don’t think it amounts to any particular humiliation of the prisoner, either. (His face wasn’t visible, if I recall correctly.) Even if he was identified, (which Moore’s lawyers would probably have advised him _might_ be interpreted as a violation of the Geneva Conventions,) I don’t think it’s likely to have provoked shame in him as anger. He was _asleep_. > [@Libertal](#): > > I argued that for Muslims, such things that might seem trivial to us are indeed a big deal. I would appreciate a reconsideration of that argument by whoever disagreed. I still believe that it makes sense, just as it does in the quote from Hersh’s source. Hersh’s sources don’t endorse the views in the book-- they only comment on its influence in U.S. government, military and intelligence circles. It’s important to note that, while _The Arab Mind_ might have informed some of the wrong-headed practices carried out in Afghanistan and Iraq, it’s [by no means a useful sourcebook for insight into the psyche of Arabs in the real world](http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1179). > [@](#): > > So what do contemporary anthropologists make of Patai’s work? Mahmood Mamdani of Columbia University, author of the recently published “Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror” (Pantheon), dismisses this sort of Orientalist scholarship as “culture talk” that reduces all problems in the Muslim world to culture and neglects actual political experience. > > To Dale Eickelman, a professor of anthropology at Dartmouth College, “The Arab Mind” is useful only as a negative example. “Once only, I used it in an introductory class as an anti-text to indicate the pitfalls of using psychological projections to elicit the characteristics of society and nation,” he said in a recent e-mail. Sondra Hale, a professor of anthropology and chair of the women’s studies program at UCLA, seconds the notion. “He can no longer be taken seriously,” she said via e-mail. [‘Its best use is as a doorstop’](http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1223525,00.html) > [@](#): > > In some ways, the book’s appeal to the military is easy to understand, because it gives a superficially coherent view of the Arab enemy and their supposed personality defects. It is also readily digestible, uncomplicated by nuances and caveats, and has lots of juicy quotes, a generous helping of sex, and no academic jargon. > > The State Department, too, used to take an interest in the book, although it seemingly no longer does. At one stage, the training department gave free copies to officials when they were posted to US embassies in the Middle East. > > In contrast, opinions of Patai’s book among Middle East experts at US universities are almost universally scathing. “The best use for this volume, if any, is as a doorstop,” one commented. “The book is old, and a thoroughly discredited form of scholarship,” said another. > > None of the academics I contacted thought the book suitable for serious study, although Georgetown University once invited students to analyse it as “an example of bad, biased social science”. > > There is a lot wrong with The Arab Mind apart from its racism: the title, for a start. Although the Arab countries certainly have their distinctive characteristics, the idea that 200 million people, from Morocco to the Gulf, living in rural villages, urban metropolises and (very rarely these days) desert tents, think with some sort of single, collective mind is utterly ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/89 "2004-07-19T23:46:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I made a similar argument, I believe to Diogenes, about the tape Michael Moore had decided to use in his film and turn over to authorities. Whoever argued against me maintained that the film’s footage of a _possibly_ simulated erection of an Iraqi man being stroked (or poked, or pointed at) by an American man was basically no big deal. I argued that for Muslims, such things that might seem trivial to us are indeed a big deal. I would appreciate a reconsideration of that argument by whoever disagreed. I still believe that it makes sense, just as it does in the quote from Hersh’s source. I have to agree with Diogenes and Larry, and it’s not just because I’m a Moore supporter. As I was watching the movie, I dreaded seeing that scene because I too was wondering why Moore hadn’t turned it over and fully expected to blast Moore for its inclusion. And I would have blasted him, if I thought he deserved it. The clip was nothing like I expected. You didn’t even see if the soldier actually touched the man. He reached down, so maybe he did, but it was very quick. He just leaned over and came right back up. he certainly didn’t have time to stroke it. It wasn’t even clear that the man on the ground had an erection. To the soldiers, the way the blanket was folded made it _look_ like he had an erection. The soldier reached down, and if he did touch anything, it was the blanket. I’m not letting the soldiers off the hook for being insensitive, but after seeing it I wasn’t sure what all the fuss was about. Like Diogenes, I was much more offended by the name “Ali Baba.” It’s just one of those things you have to see for yourself in order to properly judge it. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/90 "2004-07-19T23:50:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I made a similar argument, I believe to Diogenes, about the tape Michael Moore had decided to use in his film and turn over to authorities. \. **Liberal** , in the past you’ve argued quite fervently for people to avoid the “small potatoes” in these arguments, the stories about Bush falling off his bike and so on, in favour of the larger arguments about large and, most importantly, systemic abuses of rights. I believe that had Moore publicised this particular piece of footage, it would appear extremely weak on its own (vague footage consisting of “Ali Baba” + sexual innuendo). It’d look like the work of one stupid soldier. It’s only as part of chronicling the serious and systemic abuses of Iraqis by the US military that it becomes important. Without the Abu Ghraib photos and the involvement of Rumsfeld, Sanchez, the Justice Department and so on, it’s just a single abuse. But viewed in context, it’s part of systemic and long-running abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/91 "2004-07-20T01:54:47Z")
It’s a little fucking scary that the difference between American outrage and American indifference is simply whether or not there is videotape that can be played on the news. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/92 "2004-07-20T11:30:45Z")
Well, all right then. I suppose the two indeed are not comparable. I may not agree on many issues with those of you who chimed in, but I do trust you to be truthful. ---
**Author:** ![Andros\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Andros\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andros_X)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/93 "2004-07-20T16:52:26Z")
I wonder what is worse…the fact that this happened and American soldiers were involved, or that it doesn’t surprise me in the least. This is an atrocity. It’s not just “a few bad apples”, or “unfortunate”. It’s an atrocity. It may not be an atrocity in the legal sense, but in the moral sense, it’s dead on. American soldiers, while children were being raped by those supposed to guard them, did worse than stand by – they decided to make a fucking movie out of it. The only thing that could be worse than what they did was actually raping the children themselves. These people are supposed to be protecting the innocent from the violent ravages of the Enemy, and instead they film it. This is inexcusable, and if these morons were under my command, I’d have their asses hauled up in front of a court-martial so fast that they wouldn’t know if they were coming or going. These people must be punished. There should be a congressional investigation into the Pentagon’s training and recruitment methods to figure out where the hell all of these sick fucks are coming from. And anybody who knew about this and didn’t speak up should be arrested, tried and, if convicted, have their asses thrown in the stockade for a long time. Even if Bush is not directly responsible for this execrable act, the fact remains that his actions have made the US military the Bad Guys. We need to stop this before anyone else is harmed by it. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/94 "2004-07-20T21:35:58Z")
While not dealing with the abuses in detail, this 6-page overview in US News and World Report gives a hint of what conditions were like at Abu Ghraib. Here are some excerpts: > [@](#): > > [Hell On Earth](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040719/usnews/19prison.htm) > > Life in Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison, newly available documents show, would have made Satan quake > > In October last year, Army Capt. Donald Reese visited the Abu Ghraib prison complex near Baghdad for the first time. He had plenty of reason to be there. He had just been installed as the warden of part of the prison, and as he toured cellblock 1, he was stunned to see a bunch of naked prisoners. He would later tell Army investigators: "My first reaction was, ‘Wow, there [are] a lot of nude people here.’ " Army intelligence officers assured him, he testified, that “nothing was illegal or wrong about it”–that, in fact, stripping the prisoners was a tried-and-true intelligence tactic used to make the prisoners uncomfortable. By his own account, Reese, a **reservist and window-blinds salesman in civilian life** , was ill-prepared for the job. **He had never before set foot in a prison, even as a visitor, and he knew nothing of the Geneva Conventions** , which specify conditions for humane treatment of enemy prisoners of war and others. “I, myself, have never been in a prison,” Reese told Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who was assigned to investigate the issue of abuses at Abu Ghraib. “So I had no experience at all as far as a warden or that type of thing.” > [@](#): > > The abuses took place, the files show, in a chaotic and dangerous environment made even more so by the constant pressure from Washington to squeeze intelligence from detainees. **Riots, prisoner escapes, shootings, corrupt Iraqi guards, unsanitary conditions, rampant sexual misbehavior, bug-infested food, prisoner beatings and humiliations, and almost-daily mortar shellings from Iraqi insurgents** –according to the annex to General Taguba’s report, that pretty much sums up life at Abu Ghraib. > [@](#): > > It was an environment for which not just Reese’s reservists but many regular Army troops were singularly unprepared. Col. Henry Nelson, an Air Force psychiatrist who prepared a report for Taguba on Abu Ghraib, described it as a “new psychological battlefield” and detailed the nature of the challenge faced by the Americans working in the overcrowded prison. **“These detainees are male and female, young and old,” Nelson wrote; "they may be innocent, may have high intelligence value, or may be terrorists or criminals. No matter who they are, if they are at Abu Ghraib, they are remanded in deplorable, dangerous living conditions, as are the soldiers."** > [@](#): > > As the commanders battled it out, soldiers at Abu Ghraib were confused over who was in charge, the documents show. > > … > > **Weak leadership in the prison meant soldiers couldn’t accomplish basic tasks, like feeding their detainees.** Without a clear chain of command, especially after Sanchez informed Karpinski that military intelligence authorities would assume responsibility for running a key area of Abu Ghraib where Iraqis were detained for interrogation, some soldiers just ran wild. \*\*“One of the tower guards was shooting prisoners with lead balls and a slingshot,” \*\* a company commander testified. Karpinski, in her interview with Taguba, said some soldiers likened the place to “the wild, wild West.” Soldiers ran around in civilian clothes and covered latrines with so much graffiti a commander had them painted black. An Army captain photographed female subordinates showering in outside stalls while private contractors smuggled beer into the prison. > [@](#): > > **Abu Ghraib wasn’t the only prison where abuses took place.** The problems there, the newly available documents show, had their roots months earlier at another U.S.-run detention center in southern Iraq called Camp Bucca. Evidence showed that MP s viciously attacked prisoners there, including one who had his nose smashed in. Four soldiers were given less than honorable discharges but were not prosecuted. “I’m convinced that what happened [at Abu Ghraib] would never have happened if” the Camp Bucca cases had been prosecuted, Maj. Michael Sheridan, who worked at Abu Ghraib, told General Taguba. > [@](#): > > Among the more shocking exchanges revealed in the Taguba classified annexes are a series of E-mails sent by Maj. David Dinenna of the 320th MP Battalion. The E-mails, sent in October and November to Maj. William Green of the 800th MP Brigade and copied to the higher chain of command, **show a frantic attempt to simply get the detainees at Abu Ghraib edible food**. Dinenna pressed repeatedly for food that wouldn’t make prisoners vomit. > [@](#): > > The Taguba report shows that the major abuses at Abu Ghraib occurred between October and December, almost all of them in the early hours of the morning, when senior officers were not present. > [@](#): > > She [Karpinski] laid out a litany of complaints: When she asked for force protection at Abu Ghraib to suppress incoming mortar fire, Sanchez gave her no troops. Worried about the safety of her soldiers, she complained loudly “up the line,” including to Wodjakowski, about how **military intelligence was using a former Iraqi soldier–who had been a prisoner–as a translator**. “Nobody seemed to care that this guy was out there and had full access to everywhere on the compound,” she testified. Karpinski said she had reason not to trust the Iraqi: **He had fought against U.S. forces as a member of Saddam Hussein’s Republican Guard**. > [@](#): > > At one point, Taguba asked Karpinski if she recalled a memo issued by General Sanchez requiring prisoners to be treated with “respect and dignity.” Karpinski said she did. Known for her sharp tongue, she then described the lousy food, lack of showers, and violations of prisoner rights–all issues she had taken up with Sanchez. \*\*“Soldiers recognize that the person [Sanchez] who signed that policy letter about dignity and respect,” she testified, “has about as much interest in dignity and respect for prisoners as he does about the cleanliness of bathrooms.” \*\* > [@](#): > > Whatever battles there were between the top generals, many soldiers felt abandoned by their chain of command. In testimony, they complained about the lack of toilet facilities, unsanitary conditions, and their unnecessary vulnerability to frequent mortar attacks when they slept out in the compounds. “If you are talking about soldier life support, it’s been horrible,” Capt. Mark Hale, an MP at Abu Ghraib, told Taguba’s staff last February. He added: “The only guidance my guys got was the guidance I gave them. . . . \*\*When you tried to go up, you basically got blown off.” \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/95 "2004-07-20T21:42:45Z")
Let’s just say it: a vote for Bush this November is a vote for torturing innocent civilians. Clean and simple. We know what Bush’s people are, and if we vote for him knowing that, we’re saying, “What went on at Abu Ghraib is fine with us. Let’s have more of it.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/96 "2004-07-20T21:43:47Z")
More: (Disclaimer: the following link is to a blogsite, it references, but does not link to, official documents that are stated to be at another web site. For reasons of sheer laziness, I will not pursue the _bona fides_ unless someone actually challenges the authenticity of these excerpts…) [http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/20/evidence\_for\_hershs\_.html](http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/20/evidence_for_hershs_.html) > [@](#): > > …At the end of this post are links to digital copies of two documents from the Taguba report, hosted on the Washington Post website. Is it possible that they document the exact incidents to which Hersh referred? Excerpt from statement provided by Kasim Mehaddi Hilas, Detainee #151108, on January 18 2004: > > I saw [name deleted] fucking a kid, his age would be about 15 - 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard the screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [name deleted] who was wearing the military uniform putting his dick in the little kid’s ass. I couldn’t see the face of the kid because his face wasn’t in front of the door. And the female soldier was taking pictures. [name deleted], I think he is [deleted] because of his accent, and he was not skinny or short, and he acted like a homosexual (gay). And that was in cell #23 as best as I remember. > > Another testimony alleging abuse of minors from a statement provided by Thaar Salman Dawod, Detainee #150427, on January 17, 2004: > > I saw lots of people getting naked for a few days getting punished in the first days of Ramadan. They came with two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and Grainer was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures from top and bottom and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young. I don’t know their names… We need a “puking my guts out” smiley. Wish we didn’t, but we do. ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/97 "2004-07-20T22:00:12Z")
Come get me when there’s evidence of these crimes. Yes, **evidence.** And I don’t mean one man’s supposition of these videos. I mean hard evidence of the crimes. I believe the mishandling and even torture of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib happened because I have seen irrefutable evidence of it. Until there is proof of thie heinous crime beyond the idle ramblings of **one man** then I am inclined to believe it didn’t. Oh, and don’t worry about me. I’m wearing my flame-proof underwear, so bring it on. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/98 "2004-07-20T22:57:25Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > Come get me when there’s evidence of these crimes. > > Yes, **evidence.** And I don’t mean one man’s supposition of these videos. I mean hard evidence of the crimes. We’re not talking about one man’s supposition. Hersh’s comments are in line with what several other witnesses to the acts themselves and the documentary evidence thereof have already related to us. “We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience. We’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges,” is how Senator Graham put it after seeing the photos and videos that have not been released. The Iraqi-born Swede who was recently released claims that he saw teenaged boys bound and raped. [NBC reported](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4945202/) (way back in May) the existence of the videotape. > [@](#): > > U.S. military officials tell NBC News, the unreleased images show American soldiers severely beating one Iraqi prisoner to near death; apparently, raping an Iraqi female prisoner; acting inappropriately with a dead body; and Iraqi guards apparently videotaped by U.S. soldiers raping young boys. This isn’t a case of one guy making baseless accusations out of the blue. Several people who have seen the actual tape have spoken to the press about it. Really, I don’t expect we’ll _ever_ see the actual video – just like I don’t ever expect (or want) to Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo’s sick home movies. Enough credible witnesses have testified about them that I don’t doubt their existence, though. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/99 "2004-07-21T05:33:46Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > Come get me when there’s evidence of these crimes. > > Yes, **evidence.** And I don’t mean one man’s supposition of these videos. I mean hard evidence of the crimes. > > I believe the mishandling and even torture of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib happened because I have seen irrefutable evidence of it. Until there is proof of thie heinous crime beyond the idle ramblings of **one man** then I am inclined to believe it didn’t. > > Oh, and don’t worry about me. I’m wearing my flame-proof underwear, so bring it on. Do you **want** to watch a video of a child being raped??? Because I sure don’t. I’ll take people’s word for it. None of us, not one, could verify this ourselves without being party to child pornography, by either having it on our computes from a download, or having it in our homes via a mailed videotape. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630/100 "2004-07-21T05:42:04Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Do you **want** to watch a video of a child being raped??? > > Because I sure don’t. I’ll take people’s word for it. > > None of us, not one, could verify this ourselves without being party to child pornography, by either having it on our computes from a download, or having it in our homes via a mailed videotape. Anything to maintain the illusion of propiety, homeboy, anything to maintain the illusion. Once these tapes come to light (anyone actually think they won’t?), it’ll become a matter of “I don’t see actual penetration. This could be simulated” from The Usual Suspects. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-condone-rape-of-iraqi-children/255630.md?page=6)