# Americans earn more but Canadian poor better off: StatsCan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2000, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239 "2000-07-28T17:11:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/1 "2000-07-28T17:11:48Z")
[Full text](http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/2000/07/28/stats_money000728) "The average American earns more than the average Canadian, but the gap between rich and poor in the United States is far wider and spreading faster than in Canada, Statistics Canada said Friday. “In a study of income distribution patterns in the two countries between 1974 and 1997, the agency found that poorer Canadians are actually better off than poor Americans.” Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/2 "2000-07-28T17:26:57Z")
I completely agree and I can show you my Canadian and American tax returns to clearly illustrate why that is so. So what do you want to discuss? Why there is a significant brain drain from Canada to the US including professions such as Doctors, Lawyers, Techies, Nurses, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/3 "2000-07-28T17:35:40Z")
Many Doctors, Lawyers, Techies, Nurses, etc. (why the caps, btw?) want to make more money? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/4 "2000-07-28T17:43:35Z")
so, given that both countries are very similar in terms of resources, culture, etc., which country is more successful financially? If I had no skills and were poor, I would certainly want to live in Canada. Were I successful (had a good degree, capitol to invest, etc) I would want to live in the states. There is a pretty simple system at work. People tend to do what gives the greatest reward with the least amount of pain or difficulty. In the US, there is a greater reward for becoming financially successful. In Canada, there is a greater reward for being unsuccessful financially. But Canada is nicer to people. The US asks for more personal responsibility which is mean. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/5 "2000-07-28T17:48:03Z")
I Have Absolutely No Idea! Somebody Please Help Me!.. I Can’t Seem To Stop Myself… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/6 "2000-07-28T17:51:06Z")
Unemployment is higher in Canada, Labo(u)r costs are higher in the US; Productivity is higher in the US; Prices are higher in the US. ( source is the [Bureau of Labor Statistics](http://stats.bls.gov/flsdata.htm)) I’m also sure that the US and Canada use different standards of poverty (US factors in cost of health care). So simplistic comparisons can be misleading. What constitutes “better off?” What is considered “poor?” If the poverty definition is different (which it probably is, at least slightly) then this "revelation shouldn’t be surprising. “Poor” in the US are better off than poor in Mexico. I’m too lazy to dig up the differences in poverty definitions right now. pinqy oh, and here is [Statistics Canada](http://www.statcan.ca) (in English or French) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/7 "2000-07-28T17:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr.Zambezi \* > But Canada is nicer to people. The US asks for more personal responsibility which is mean. Canada is nicer to _poor_ people. It is deffinately not very nice to the middle and upper class. Agree on the US phylosophy though. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/8 "2000-07-28T17:59:07Z")
That’s \* philosophy \*… aparently I am philosophically opposed to correct spelling… ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/9 "2000-07-28T18:01:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m also sure that the US and Canada use different standards of poverty (US factors in cost of health care). The U.S. factors in cost of health care? As far as I’m aware, the official poverty line in the United States is derived by determining the cost of groceries sufficient to feed a family of four for a year, and multiplying that figure by three. Do you have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/10 "2000-07-28T18:04:20Z")
Is it preferable to help those who already have money, or those who do not? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/11 "2000-07-28T18:11:07Z")
Talk about a loaded question… Is it wise to discourage those who can generate wealth in the economy for the sake of those who cannot? ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/12 "2000-07-28T18:35:50Z")
**Gadarene** , I believe you are mostly correct. From [the U.S. Census definitions](http://www.census.gov/population/www/cps/cpsdef.html): > [@](#): > > It was determined from the Department of Agriculture’s 1955 Household Food Consumption Survey that families of three or more people spent approximately one-third of their after-tax money income on food; accordingly, poverty thresholds for families of three or more people were set at three times the cost of the economy food plan. Different procedures were used to calculate poverty thresholds for two-person families and people living alone in order to compensate for the relatively larger fixed expenses of these smaller units. For two-person families, the cost of the economy food plan was multiplied by a factor of 3.7 (also derived from the 1955 survey). For unrelated individuals (one-person units), no multiplier was used; poverty thresholds were instead calculated as a fixed proportion of the corresponding thresholds for two-person units. Annual updates of these SSA poverty thresholds were based on price changes of the items in the economy food plan. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/13 "2000-07-28T19:09:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by QuickSilver \* > \*\*That’s \* philosophy \*… aparently I am philosophically opposed to correct spelling… \*\* I sit corrected. I was misremembering the last lecture I had on Poverty Measurement Research and was thinking of recommended changes instead of actual measurement. The current threshold was established in 1964 at $3,100 for a 2 adult/2 child family, based on a 1955 Food Consumption Survey and the USDA Economy Food Plan. The food plan was multiplied by three, and the threshold has been adjusted for inflation each year. ( [Census Bureau](http://www.census.gov/population/www/cps/cpsdef.html)) pinqy ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/14 "2000-07-28T19:17:43Z")
dammit, now I quoted the wrong post. I think I’ll quit for today unless I can think of a really good way to embarrass myself further. pinqy ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/15 "2000-07-28T19:37:12Z")
You’re embarassed?! _Apparently_ I can’t even spell _apparently_… but thank you for pointing that out in bold print :o . ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/16 "2000-07-28T19:57:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by QuickSilver \* > \*\*You’re embarassed?! > > _Apparently_ I can’t even spell _apparently_… but thank you for pointing that out in bold print :o . \*\* If I’m going to go down, I’m going to take someone with me. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/17 "2000-07-28T20:42:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I sit corrected. I was misremembering the last lecture I had on Poverty Measurement Research and was thinking of recommended changes instead of actual measurement. The current threshold was established in 1964 at $3,100 for a 2 adult/2 child family, based on a 1955 Food Consumption Survey and the USDA Economy Food Plan. The food plan was multiplied by three, and the threshold has been adjusted for inflation each year. ( [Census Bureau](http://www.census.gov/population/www/cps/cpsdef.html)) Which is, by the way, an appallingly out-of-date and inaccurate way to measure poverty, given that it operates on the assumption that food expenses comprise a third of total living expenses. Nowadays, because prices for housing and health care and transportation and other ‘amenities’ have risen faster than have the prices for food, a family’s supermarket budget is more equivalent to a fourth or a fifth of their total budget…which means the official poverty line should be higher, if they’re trying to calculate the amount of people who, without assistance, can’t afford basic living expenses over the course of a year. ---
**Author:** ![Utopia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d07c76/32.png) [@Utopia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Utopia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/18 "2000-07-28T20:58:44Z")
> [@](#): > > The US asks for more personal responsibility which is mean. HAH! More personal responsibility? I seem to recall a Florida jury awarding, or rewarding =), $145,000,000,000 to people who blame tobacco companies for their personal choice to continue smoking. ---
**Author:** ![TampaFlyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71e660/32.png) [@TampaFlyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TampaFlyer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/19 "2000-07-28T20:59:05Z")
\> the gap between rich and poor Why is this an issue? The poor, by definition, don’t have much, so at some point, a poor person who gains more wealth will not count toward the number of poor. However, a rich person who gains more wealth remains in the rich category. This is what distorts the statistics. Also, all the studies that divide people into groups based on wealth or income assume that those groups are static, i.e., people do not move from one group to another. That’s just not true. One more thing: the U.S. poverty stats don’t include non-cash benefits like food stamps, housing assistance, etc. toward income, which also skews the stats. (Would you consider a child who makes a $10 weekly allowance to be poor, since $520/year is way below the poverty line, even though the parents provide the housing, food, clothing, medical care, & so on? That’s sort of what the stats do.) ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239/20 "2000-07-28T21:22:45Z")
> [@](#): > > One more thing: the U.S. poverty stats don’t include non-cash benefits like food stamps, housing assistance, etc. toward income, which also skews the stats. (Would you consider a child who makes a $10 weekly allowance to be poor, since $520/year is way below the poverty line, even though the parents provide the housing, food, clothing, medical care, & so on? That’s sort of what the stats do.) _snort_ Well, since part of the reason of the poverty line is to determine who’s eligible to _receive_ those non-cash benefits, and since conservatives are generally in favor of gutting those non-cash benefits or eliminating them completely, it seems disingenuous that people can point to the benefits as evidence that things aren’t as bad as the poverty stats make it seem, while stumping to take away those benefits. Oh, and by the way, there’s very little class movement in the United States. As EJsGirl states [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=31141), “a child almost lnever leaves the socio-economic strata inhabited by the parents.” Do you really find that difficult to believe? A lot of upper-middle class management types out there who used to live in a ditch, huh? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-earn-more-but-canadian-poor-better-off-statscan/27239.md?page=2)