# Americans. How do you feel about the prisoner issue now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2004, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780 "2004-06-23T11:09:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/1 "2004-06-23T11:09:15Z")
GD or IMHO? I’ll try IMHO as it more polly than debatey 😉 The Iraqi abuse cases are underway and the defendants are claiming that they were following orders. This isn’t exactly a surprise tactic but the more you read about this stuff the more you think how true it could be. [Afghan detainees routinely tortured and humiliated by US troops](http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,1245236,00.html) > [@](#): > > Detainees held in Afghanistan by American troops have been routinely tortured and humiliated as part of the interrogation process, in the same way as those in Iraq, a Guardian investigation has found. > Five detainees have died in custody, three of them in suspicious circumstances, and survivors have told stories of beatings, strippings, hoodings and sleep deprivation. There have been many other allegations that I have read. [Guantanamo man condemns treatment](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3506774.stm) > [@](#): > > In a statement released through his solicitor Louise Christian, he said “horrific things” had happened to him during detention at Bagram, Kandahar and Guantanamo Bay. > > “This has included… botched medical treatment, interrogation at gunpoint, beatings and inhuman conditions,” it said. We’ve seen the [“Torture memo”](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf) ( **Warning: Large pdf file** ) and had a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261529) about it. We are also hearing that although the initial set up of Guantanamo was meant to be > [@](#): > > [here](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/2397170.htm?1c) > The Pentagon plans to house only top al Qaeda captives at the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and only President Bush will decide whether and where they would face military tribunals, a senior Defense Department official said Wednesday. we hear that > [@](#): > > [here](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200406/s1137044.htm) > But officials told the Times that Guantanamo detainees have provided only a tiny amount of intelligence of current value. > > None of the Guantanamo detainees are leaders or senior members of Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda terrorist network and only about two dozen are sworn Al Qaeda operatives or militants able to give valuable insight into the network, the Times reported. Not a very good picture I think you’ll agree. It’s really starting to look like there is a larger problem that just some rogue element in Iraq and the Admin had at the very least some influence in the dehumanisation of the prisoners and the methods of dealing with them. A poster **pjen** started several threads around the US losing the Moral high ground and was liberally slammed and put down for his views. > **[Losing the Moral Highground- What goes around comes around](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=171472)** > > In a thread I started just prior to the SDMB disappearing into a black hole for a month (and consequently lost completely from the archive) I questioned the morality and legality of US action re denial of POW status to Guantanamo Bay detainees (none... > **[Losing the Moral Highground- Reprise 2](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=125823)** > > According to: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=533&e=5&cid=533&u=/ap/20020716/ap\_on\_re\_us/lindh\_taliban\_27 John Walker Lindh is only guilty of joining a foreign army and using explosives (apparently a gun): ‘Lindh... Event though some of his stuff was OTT he’s not looking too stupid from where I’m sitting. So with all of the above and the myriad of other info available how do you feel now about how your country is acting and how it is perceived? The US should have a white hate on. They are currently wearing a very dark grey one IMO. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Tiggrkitty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tiggrkitty/32/17966_2.png) [@Tiggrkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tiggrkitty)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/2 "2004-06-23T11:16:44Z")
Do you expect us not to be outraged at how our military is behaving? Do you assume the American population as a whole to be as calloused as our military? Why ask this question? How would YOU feel if it was YOUR military that treated POWs this way? Me personally, I am ashamed of how our military is behaving and how our government is reacting. There isn’t a whole lot I can personally do about it, other than to cast my vote in the opposite direction in hopes it sends a message. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/3 "2004-06-23T11:19:07Z")
I am ashamed, first and foremost. The perpetrators are my fellow volunteers, and well could have been the people who work here with me, or me. None of us has much control over where we get assigned. On the one side, the things they did are inexcusable and I would like to think that were I placed in that situation I would hold myself on a higher moral ground. On the other hand, I don’t know what its like. They were getting shot at and hundreds of detainees were being brought in day by day by day. Their superiors demanded information NOW, and their comrades were dying. That’s a tough spot. Politically? In the Navy, the Skipper has to sleep at night, so he turns his ship over to the Officer of the Deck with full trust that he will take care of her and keep her on course. If that Officer of the Deck runs the ship aground or hits a small vessel and kills people, the Skipper takes a forced early retirement - along with all officers who were on the bridge. They say in the military that shit rolls downhill, but it’s only because it starts at the top. In this case the top was the Pentagon and the bottom were these previously innocent volunteers for America, and I think the entire ladder is guilty. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/4 "2004-06-23T11:31:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Why ask this question? How would YOU feel if it was YOUR military that treated POWs this way? I would be angry. Ireland has been criticised quite strongly for our treatment of civilian prisoners and the conditions we house them so I am not for one second saying that the US is doing anything that a lot of other countries including my own wouldn’t do. This is not a dig at you or your country. It’s a honest question. I have seen a lot of Americans(Here. on TV and in the papers) who while slamming the abusers in Iraq personally ignoring the larger picture and throwing their full support behind GITMO. I was just wondering how people are feeling now that there really does seem to be a larger problem that just a few bad seeds. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/5 "2004-06-23T12:01:57Z")
The US is at war…undeclared perhaps, but at war all the same. If forcing Iraqui prisoners to wear women’s underpants results in worthwhile intelligence,so be it. Or how about Al-Queda sawing offpeople’s heads? I truly find it amazing that there is such concern for these unlucky prisoners…while nobody says anything about the murder of 3500 innocent people on 9/11. When amnest international says something about Saddam’s death camps, perhaps I’ll listen. Otherwise, yack all you want…every intelligence service in the world uses somewhat unsavory methods to elicit confessions and information…the German Police murdered the Baader-Meinhoff gang in their prison cells. The British MI-5 murdered IRA agents in Spain, and the French secret service has committed extrajudicial killings as well. Those ofyou WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/6 "2004-06-23T12:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > The US is at war…undeclared perhaps, but at war all the same. If forcing Iraqui prisoners to wear women’s underpants results in worthwhile intelligence,so be it. Or how about Al-Queda sawing offpeople’s heads? I truly find it amazing that there is such concern for these unlucky prisoners…while nobody says anything about the murder of 3500 innocent people on 9/11. So you say that terrorists are _bad?_ My heavens, I had no idea! Well, now that changes everything! ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/7 "2004-06-23T12:23:29Z")
[This](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/iraq?Open) > [@ralph124c](#): > > The US is at war…undeclared perhaps, but at war all the same. If forcing Iraqui prisoners to wear women’s underpants results in worthwhile intelligence,so be it. The people in Iraq were nobodies and some of them were innocent same goes in GITMO for most of them. Little or no useful intel came out of it. > [@](#): > > Or how about Al-Queda sawing offpeople’s heads? Terrorists do horrible things, do you really want your country judged on the level of "Hey at least we’re a few rungs up the ladder from terrorists? > [@](#): > > truly find it amazing that there is such concern for these unlucky prisoners…while nobody says anything about the murder of 3500 innocent people on 9/11. Absolute bollocks of the highest order. Do you actually believe this? The world mourned with you. There was a 2 mile queue outside the US embassy here and I’ve heard the same form a lot of other countries. I supported the attack on Afghanistan like most of the rest of the world. Nobody says anything about 9/11? Get a grip will you. Do you think that the US should now get a blank cheque just because you were the victim of terrorism? Please. > [@](#): > > When amnest international says something about Saddam’s death camps, perhaps I’ll listen. What? Are you really that clueless? [This](http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/iraq?Open) took me a minute to Google > [@](#): > > Political prisoners and detainees were subjected to systematic torture. The bodies of many of those executed had evident signs of torture. Common methods of physical torture included electric shocks or cigarette burns to various parts of the body, pulling out of fingernails, rape, long periods of suspension by the limbs from either a rotating fan in the ceiling or from a horizontal pole, beating with cables, hosepipe or metal rods, and falaqa (beating on the soles of the feet). In addition, detainees were threatened with rape and subjected to mock execution. They were placed in cells where they could hear the screams of others being tortured and were deliberately deprived of sleep. > > In March 'Abd al-Wahad al-Rifa’i, a 58-year-old retired teacher, was executed by hanging after he had been held in prison without charge or trial for more than two years. He was suspected of having links with the opposition through his brother who lived abroad. His family in Baghdad collected his body from the Baghdad Security Headquarters. The body reportedly bore clear marks of torture, with the toenails pulled out and the right eye swollen. > In July, two men, Zaher al-Zuhairi and Fares Kadhem 'Akla, reportedly had their tongues cut out for slandering the President, by members of Feda’iyye Saddam, a militia created in 1994 by 'Uday Saddam Hussein, the President’s eldest son. The amputations took place in a public square in Diwaniya City, south of Baghdad. There’s also [Iraq: Systematic torture of political prisoners](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE140082001!Open) > [@](#): > > The British MI-5 murdered IRA agents in Spain, It was the SAS and Gibraltar and the UK was internationally criticised for the actions. Those actions also directly caused a chain of events in NI that led to the death of several people including two soldiers and a very signifigant increase in tension and hostility. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/8 "2004-06-23T12:27:32Z")
Actually this is kinda more GD isn’t it? Maybe even the PIT 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/9 "2004-06-23T12:33:03Z")
[Iraq: Beheading of civilian condemned, hostages must be released](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140212004?open&of=ENG-IRQ) Those Amnesty bastards 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/10 "2004-06-23T12:34:42Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The US is at war…undeclared perhaps, but at war all the same. If forcing Iraqui prisoners to wear women’s underpants results in worthwhile intelligence,so be it. Or how about Al-Queda sawing offpeople’s heads? I truly find it amazing that there is such concern for these unlucky prisoners…while nobody says anything about the murder of 3500 innocent people on 9/11. > […] > Those ofyou WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone! 😃 Sinless one here! I find it interesting that you focus heavily on the least of the tortures that the Soldiers did, but on the worst of the terrorist actions, including one action that had nothing to do with Iraq. There is no point condemning torture commited by your enemies when your own troops are torturing also. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/11 "2004-06-23T12:37:20Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I truly find it amazing that there is such concern for these unlucky prisoners…while nobody says anything about the murder of 3500 innocent people on 9/11. 😕 What’s this now? Please explain this “9/11”. 3500 murdered??? When and where was this? This is the first I’ve heard of it. What is “9/11” is that September 11th or November 9th? Or is it something else altogether? Please excuse my ignorance. It must have to do with the fact that nobody ever says anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/12 "2004-06-23T18:09:43Z")
\>So with all of the above and the myriad of other info available how do you feel now about how your country is acting and how it is perceived? I am very unhappy with how my country is acting and I gather that perceptions abroad are often negative in various ways - and rightly so. I think the United States of America is generally the greatest movement in world history, but sadly it’s also many other things. Please, non-Americans, understand that many of us did not want the Bush administration; more than a few of us don’t think he was legitimately elected. I side with the many experts who think the electoral process was derailed when the Supreme Court voted along party lines to put him in office. To the extent that Bush himself and members of his administration represent America, I am embarrassed to be an American. I blame this administration for exploiting, twisting, and squandering the support so much of the world showed us after September 11, and likewise whatever moral high ground we held before or around that time. And I see this administration as the biggest component of our current poor standing. But I also think American material greed and some arrogance also contributed, especially to the decades of history that have fueled current problems. Here’s hoping that our legal process uncovers the truth about what happened in our political prisons. I guess it’s likely that leadership as high as Rumsfeld and perhaps Bush knowingly set up a situation conducive to terrible abuses, if not specifically ordering them. It’s true that average humans will commit all sorts of atrocities with surprisingly little persuasion in some settings - perhaps the most active soldiers in these abuses were people predisposed to such things - still I suspect the problem had to include a system its leaders intended to do something vile. I have to think that what we did to Iraqi prisoners was milder and less outrageous than what Saddam was doing to them, and than what terrorists did to our citizens. But, that isn’t the most important thing to judge - we should judge how we are behaving in the world relative to how we think we and everybody else should behave. Citizens and especially knowledgeable leaders of other modern countries must shake their heads in baffled dismay as they watch US actions. I look eagerly forward to a time when we are ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/13 "2004-06-23T18:13:13Z")
[Whoops! Damn, had a good roll going there.] …behaving again in a way we can be proud of. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/14 "2004-06-23T18:27:24Z")
I am angered, ashamed and disgusted at what the American military is doing/has done, yet somehow hardly surprised. Further, I am embarassed that I share a country with people who think like **ralph124c**. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/15 "2004-06-23T19:18:23Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I truly find it amazing that there is such concern for these unlucky prisoners…while nobody says anything about the murder of 3500 innocent people on 9/11. Yeah, that’s right. No-one has mentioned the victims of 9/11. We’ve all forgotten them. There have been absolutely no tributes to them, no days of mourning, no remembrance ceremonies, no threads on these message boards talking about how terrible it all was. It’s as if the whole thing never happened. :rolleyes: Moron. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/16 "2004-06-23T19:37:49Z")
The only thing which embarasses me more than the continuing screwups perpetuated by the Bush Administration is the mindless flag-waving jingoism of folks who continue to support them. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Those ofyou WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone! **Cast!** ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/17 "2004-06-23T19:56:52Z")
“Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.” It’s depressing how many people only know half of the quote. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/18 "2004-06-23T20:15:27Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > If forcing Iraqui prisoners to wear women’s underpants results in worthwhile intelligence,so be it. I believe this is the heart of the misunderstanding. These weren’t prisoners, they were detainees. Prisoners are convicted criminals who have been proven of being guilty of some sort of wrong-doing. Detainees are people seemingly randomly picked off the streets for looking suspicious (and then released after being beaten, tortured, humiliated, raped and/or killed). 90% of those detainees are released. Care to amend your statement? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/19 "2004-06-23T21:51:08Z")
This was not a case of seven rogue wackos foisting their perversions on detainees. The government hired private interrogators, and allowed military police to participate (both violations of international law.) The International Red Cross said the same torture techniques were used in several prisons. It was clearly widespread and organized. The memos released Tuesday show that the White House counsel Alberto Gonzales, Attorney General John Ashcroft, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and President George W. Bush all believed they were not subject to the Geneva Conventions when it came to torture. I’m not happy about all that. Mr. Bush campaigned as a Compassionate Conservative, and now he might be charged as a war criminal. When he says torture is okay, he’s dragging my name, my nation, through the mud. I take offense at that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780/20 "2004-06-23T22:40:18Z")
Moving this from IMHO to Great Debates. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-feel-about-the-prisoner-issue-now/251780.md?page=2)