# Americans - how do you morally justify drone strikes in the "War on Terror"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440 "2012-10-11T18:05:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/301 "2012-10-17T23:48:13Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I actually think this is the crux of the OP’s problem. He imagines a world where James Bond is real and SEAL teams are offing Al Qaeda’s lieutenants on a weekly basis and no one knows! Yes, it’s pure fantasy on my part to conceive of a world where the [CIA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_castro), the [KGB](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky), [MI6](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/14/mi6-licence-to-kill-and-torture), and the [Mossad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wrath_of_God) attempt or carry out targeted assassinations. > [@](#): > > The reason for the paucity of stories like Mahmoud Al-Manhouh is because they don’t happen. With all due respect: how the hell do you know? Successful operations, by virtue of their being “successful”, are those which pass without public note (except for Mossad, who apparently prefers a higher profile, in rumor if not in fact). > [@](#): > > The choice isn’t between 007 and dropping a missle on them. It’s between dropping a missle and doing absolutely nothing. I agree that using field operatives to do some “wet work” is a much greater challenge in some locales than others, but if it’s not feasible in certain instances, I fail to see how that gives the US the moral right to kill as many innocents as it deems necessary in order to take out high-value targets. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/302 "2012-10-17T23:52:43Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > I dont have a problem with non-combatants getting killed while in the location of a drone strike, its their war as well. Note how I mentioned non-combatants, rather than innocent civillians, cause I doubt such a thing exists over there. As well, there are times when I think instead of trying to minimize them, we should actively maximize them. > > Putting out a notice to the world saying anyone living in this kill box, is subject to arc light strikes. B-52 cells dropping full loads of HE, no jerking around and put the war back into the war on terror. Make the non-combatants an unwilling ally in the region. > > If we have enough justification for a drone strike, we have enough for an arc-light mission. > > Declan To paraphrase Yousef/Mohammed/bin Laden: "I don’t have a problem with non-combatants getting killed while in the location of an al Qaeda strike, its their war as well. Note how I mentioned non-combatants, rather than innocent civillians, cause I doubt such a thing exists over there. As well, there are times when I think instead of trying to minimize them, we should actively maximize them. Putting out a notice to the world saying anyone working in these steel and glass boxes, is subject to airplane strikes. B767s dropping full loads of [Jet A](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel#Jet_A), no jerking around and put the war back into the war on the infidel. Make the non-combatants an unwilling ally in the region. If we have enough justification for an embassy strike, we have enough for an airplane mission." ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/303 "2012-10-17T23:56:25Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I would have preferred that Al Queda did not start this war, but they have been making war on the US since the 1990s. If they don’t want to surrender, then kill them. War is hell, let’s kill them before they kill us. You do understand that al Qaeda would disagree with you (with some justification) as to the timeline of the origins of the present “conflict”? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/304 "2012-10-17T23:58:43Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > It is not as if the Americans one day decided ‘terrorists are bad’, lets go kill some innocents. No, the civilians in the strike zones are getting killed as a direct result of the terrorists’ choice of tactics in a conflict that they triggered. The primary responsibility is theirs. After that, the responsibility lies with governments that allow and abet the use of their territory for terrorist activity, which Pakistan has been doing for more than two decades. Pakistan - what a bunch of pikers. The US has been “allowing and abetting the use of [its territory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation) for terrorist activity” for quite some time now, with arguably much more efficacy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/305 "2012-10-18T00:04:42Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > You do understand that al Qaeda would disagree with you (with some justification) as to the timeline of the origins of the present “conflict”? Really, I assume you know who founded Al Quaeda don’t you? Please explain your comment. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/306 "2012-10-18T00:08:22Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > To paraphrase Yousef/Mohammed/bin Laden: > > "I don’t have a problem with non-combatants getting killed while in the location of an al Qaeda strike, its their war as well. Note how I mentioned non-combatants, rather than innocent civillians, cause I doubt such a thing exists over there. As well, there are times when I think instead of trying to minimize them, we should actively maximize them. Who the fuck is “Yousef”? Also, are you trying to imply that the Prophet was a terrorist? If so, please explain. As for Bin Laden, when did he ever make such a statement. I’ve read most of his so-called Fatwas and can’t remember any like that. Please show me a quotation from him where he said anything remotely like that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/307 "2012-10-18T04:18:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Who the fuck is “Yousef”? > > Also, are you trying to imply that the Prophet was a terrorist? He’s referring to Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Sheik Mohammed, but since the quote and the concepts are made up he might as well attribute them to Yusuf “Cat Stevens” Islam and the prophet Muhammad. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/308 "2012-10-18T09:54:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really, I assume you know who founded Al Quaeda don’t you? > > Please explain your comment. > > Thanks. You can find out about al-Qaeda [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda) ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/309 "2012-10-18T10:40:36Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Pakistan - what a bunch of pikers. > > The US has been “allowing and abetting the use of [its territory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation) for terrorist activity” for quite some time now, with arguably much more efficacy. But you see, its been organices by Americans in the US, that makes it alright and moraly justifiable and perfectly legit … and of cos is complettly unrelated, how can you make the US accountable for their actions abroad? They go there, tell people how to live and run their country and what is a few killing between friends? All this, is of cos liked by the locals, so I guess they think: If the US likes to do stuff like this here, why not return the favour - if they like it so much. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/310 "2012-10-18T15:11:44Z")
Hey everybody! Look over there!! ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/311 "2012-10-18T17:16:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Hey everybody! Look over there!! Here, there - everywhere! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/312 "2012-10-18T17:27:17Z")
The Beatles are terrorists now? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/313 "2012-10-18T17:38:54Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > You can find out about al-Qaeda [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda) Whoosh! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/314 "2012-10-18T20:03:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Beatles are terrorists now? They always were. It’s just that some called them Freedom Fighters. Not to be confused with Foo Fighters… ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/315 "2012-10-18T21:29:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Beatles are terrorists now? I don’t really like bugs and it sometimes feels like they are invading my attic or garden, but I wouldn’t really call them terrorists - just a pest. And I sadly have to admit - I try to kill them with any means possible to me – poison, flyswatter, gas and yes, I’m aware, that I am German … however, so far I was always able to morally justify my measures against them – after all, they invaded my property. If they would not be on my property, I would leave them alone and let them do whatever Beatles or other bugs like to do. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/316 "2012-10-18T21:48:05Z")
There is no point being an empire if you have to “morally justify”. The whole point is exceptionalism. That’s how the owners of capital sustain and grow. Of course, in the democratic information era, a whole bunch of people - in who’s name the empire acts - feel better trying to identify a moral justification, believing in the democratic mechanism or something. Empire is empire. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/317 "2012-10-18T22:03:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Who the fuck is “Yousef”? > > Also, are you trying to imply that the Prophet was a terrorist? > > If so, please explain. > > As for Bin Laden, when did he ever make such a statement. > > I’ve read most of his so-called Fatwas and can’t remember any like that. > > Please show me a quotation from him where he said anything remotely like that. > [@Marley23](#): > > He’s referring to Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Sheik Mohammed, but since the quote and the concepts are made up he might as well attribute them to Yusuf “Cat Stevens” Islam and the prophet Muhammad. First off, **Marley23** is correct as to the personalities to whom I was referring in your quoted posts. Second, I am not at all trying to slander Muhammad in particular, or Islam in general. I think all organized religions are fundamentally corrupt, institutionalized nonsense. Finally, as to **Ibn Warraq** ’s assertion that the three sentences of mine which he quoted resemble in no way known pronouncements from bin Laden, I would have to strongly disagree with respect to the first and second sentences [“I don’t have a problem with non-combatants getting killed while in the location of an al Qaeda strike, its their war as well. Note how I mentioned non-combatants, rather than innocent civillians, cause I doubt such a thing exists over there.”] (I will concede that the third sentence [“As well, there are times when I think instead of trying to minimize them, we should actively maximize them.”] does not accurately reflect al Qaeda’s MO, but I left it in so as not to disrupt my mirroring of **Declan** ’s phrasing.) Quoting verbatim from bin Laden’s [“Letter to America”](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver): > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Osama bin Laden, via the Guardian, 11/24/02** > > Q1 > > "(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake: > > (a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies… > > (b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq… > > (c) Also the American army is part of the American people… > > (d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us. > > (e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us. > > (f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs." ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/318 "2012-10-18T22:24:58Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Quoting verbatim from bin Laden’s [“Letter to America”](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver): Osama bin Laden is still a crock of shit and religious nut job - I personally have not a single problem with his killing as such. However, with the actions the US has taken in their foreign policy in the middle east - I can somewhat understand, why they are upset in those countries and don’t like the US to a ridicules level. If the people in the US accepts and are alright with innocent bystanders are getting killed randomly by drones, then of cos – they will fight back – and the word is BACK. And they are not choosy on where they attack back – to them we are all the same – the UK, Germany, France & Australia are getting it. And a typical American response to that is: we don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/319 "2012-10-18T22:30:20Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > And they are not choosy on where they attack back – to them we are all the same – the UK, Germany, France & Australia are getting it. And a typical American response to that is: we don’t care. Er…no, just because westerners think Iranians and Arabs are the same doesn’t mean Middle Easterners see Germans and Americans as interchangeable. In fact, Germans have been fairly popular for quite awhile, though less so amongst the countries that send large numbers of immigrants there. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/320 "2012-10-18T22:50:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er…no, just because westerners think Iranians and Arabs are the same doesn’t mean Middle Easterners see Germans and Americans as interchangeable. > > In fact, Germans have been fairly popular for quite awhile, though less so amongst the countries that send large numbers of immigrants there. Er… yes… [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OvoVrPMK8I](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OvoVrPMK8I) [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/14/attacks-embassies-anti-islam-film](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/14/attacks-embassies-anti-islam-film) [http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/media-pretends-attack-on-german-embassy-is-about-mohammed-film/](http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/media-pretends-attack-on-german-embassy-is-about-mohammed-film/) … it’s easy to find, a simple google search “german embassy attacked” will bring plenty results [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=17)