# Americans - how do you morally justify drone strikes in the "War on Terror"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440 "2012-10-11T18:05:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/321 "2012-10-18T23:17:58Z")
It’s been quite awhile since I’ve seen someone portray Frontpage as a reliable source. Now, since you seem to disagree with my statement about Middle Easterners being able to tell the difference between Germans and Americans, perhaps you can enlighten us on your qualifications to make such a dumb and borderline racist assertion. How many Middle Eastern countries have you visited? How many Middle Easterners have you ever spoken with? Also, I assume you can talk at length about Sudan and why it’s hardly representative of the Arab World? If not, what would cause you to make a judgement about the Middle East based upon what happened in the Sudan? Wouldn’t you agree that making decisions about how Moroccans and Jordanians would react based on some occurrences is like judging Canadians and citizens of the United States based on events that occurred in Guatamala since “they’re all Americans”? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/322 "2012-10-18T23:24:41Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Osama bin Laden is still a crock of shit and religious nut job - I personally have not a single problem with his killing as such. Same here. Fuck that guy. Glad he’s gone. (Though, ironically, _not_ because of a drone strike. No one outside of bin Laden’s compound was harmed during the raid.) > [@](#): > > However, with the actions the US has taken in their foreign policy in the middle east - I can somewhat understand, why they are upset in those countries and don’t like the US to a ridicules level. > > If the people in the US accepts and are alright with innocent bystanders are getting killed randomly by drones, then of cos – they will fight back – and the word is BACK. Well, they may or may not fight back, being perhaps neither inclined to nor able to do so. I think it’s fairly uncontroversial to say that it certainly isn’t _helping_ to influence their opinion of the US favorably. I am reasonably confident that one day in the not-too-distant future, historical consensus will see these unfettered drone attacks as a shameful chapter of American history, on par with the Trail of Tears or the Philippine-American War. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/323 "2012-10-18T23:41:28Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > There is no point being an empire if you have to “morally justify”. The whole point is exceptionalism. That’s how the owners of capital sustain and grow. > > Of course, in the democratic information era, a whole bunch of people - in who’s name the empire acts - feel better trying to identify a moral justification, believing in the democratic mechanism or something. Empire is empire. Most Americans don’t want to admit they are an empire; they certainly don’t want to admit that they are behaving amorally or worse. Americans generally have a near compulsive need to believe America is the heroic savior of the world. Bastion of Freedom and Democracy, crusader for Justice, etc. > [@Fuji](#): > > Same here. Fuck that guy. Glad he’s gone. (Though, ironically, _not_ because of a drone strike. No one outside of bin Laden’s compound was harmed during the raid.) Which is kind of interesting. It shows that when we _actually_ want to get a specific guy instead of just blowing up some man who may or may not be a valid target and justifying it after the fact, we _don’t_ send drones. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/324 "2012-10-18T23:46:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s been quite awhile since I’ve seen someone portray Frontpage as a reliable source. I don’t care what you think of frontpage (neither do I for that matter), it was just a random google result… but there are more… [This one is bases on a Reuters report](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/sudan-embassies-attack_n_1883749.html) [Here a BBC cite](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19602177) I hope those are of somewhat reliable source for you, there is a google-thinga-ma-chig where you are, right? You are obviously ignoring the fact, that those emabssies where attacked - no matter the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/325 "2012-10-19T00:30:37Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > I don’t care what you think of frontpage (neither do I for that matter), it was just a random google result… but there are more… > > [This one is bases on a Reuters report](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/sudan-embassies-attack_n_1883749.html) > > [Here a BBC cite](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19602177) > > I hope those are of somewhat reliable source for you, there is a google-thinga-ma-chig where you are, right? You are obviously ignoring the fact, that those emabssies where attacked - no matter the facts. Translation: Based on an event in Sudan you’ve decided that Middle Easternors see no difference between Americans and Germans. That strikes me as remarkably stupid. Presumably you also have no problem making assumptions about how “New Yorkers” react based on something that happens in El Salvador since Salvadorans and New Yorkers are both “Americans.” Is it also safe to assume you’re very familiar with the relationship between Germans and the Middle East and can talk in detail about how it differs from the experiences of Americans. Also you failed to answer my questions as to how you can be so certain about the feeling of Middle Easterners. So please, how many Middle Eastern countries have you visited and how long have you spent there? Also, how many Middle Easterners have you spoken with about the situation? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/326 "2012-10-19T00:45:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which is kind of interesting. It shows that when we _actually_ want to get a specific guy instead of just blowing up some man who may or may not be a valid target and justifying it after the fact, we _don’t_ send drones. Yes, in the case of the highest-profile target imaginable, Obama went against the advice of his staff and ordered a dangerous Navy SEAL raid instead of sending a drone because he felt it was worth the gamble to prove Bin Laden was there. It was a difficult decision that nearly got people killed and provoked an international incident, so… drone strikes debunked, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/327 "2012-10-19T00:51:26Z")
You seem shocked that in order to be effective, our precious military might to actually need to take personal risks, instead of talking about how brave they are while killing people who can’t fight back and who we don’t actually know are even our targets. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/328 "2012-10-19T01:02:48Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Same here. Fuck that guy. Glad he’s gone. (Though, ironically, _not_ because of a drone strike. No one outside of bin Laden’s compound was harmed during the raid.) Still a good example. Out of five people killed during the Bin Laden raid, three were “civilians” (or, of you prefer, “bystanders”) - brother of the courier, brother’s wife and Bin Laden’s son. That’s 60% “collateral damage”. During a surgical strike. So - should the SEALS have refrained from this mission to minimize civilian casualties? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/329 "2012-10-19T02:09:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Most Americans don’t want to admit they are an empire; they certainly don’t want to admit that they are behaving amorally or worse. Americans generally have a near compulsive need to believe America is the heroic savior of the world. Bastion of Freedom and Democracy, crusader for Justice, etc. > > Which is kind of interesting. It shows that when we _actually_ want to get a specific guy instead of just blowing up some man who may or may not be a valid target and justifying it after the fact, we _don’t_ send drones. We wanted proof, and we wanted everything else we pulled out of the compound. Papers and computers were, no doubt, seen as an excellent secondary goal of the mission. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/330 "2012-10-19T02:10:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You seem shocked that in order to be effective, our precious military might to actually need to take personal risks, instead of talking about how brave they are while killing people who can’t fight back and who we don’t actually know are even our targets. We risk military lives when it is deemed worth it. No reason to risk them as long as there are other options. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/331 "2012-10-19T02:14:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You seem shocked Not sure where you’re getting shock out of that post. I was pointing out that, yes, the government did not use a drone to get Bin Laden (and it was a great decision). That choice involved large risks and fallout that might be seen as making it impractical to use that method over and over. Pakistan withdrew its (covert) support for the drone strikes after that raid because they were offended- and of course embarrassed that bin Laden was caught and killed in a military town. > [@](#): > > that in order to be effective, our precious military might to actually need to take personal risks, instead of talking about how brave they are Ok, so you think people in the military are cowardly bullies. Can I ask why I’m supposed to give a damn? I’m not in the military and I’m not invested in the notion that they’re brave, nor am I offended if they don’t live up to whatever level of braggadocio you feel they project, and I’m not offended by the idea that drone strikes are unfair or chicken or not quite cricket. I’m bothered by civilian deaths and fishy accounting and questions about evidence and due process, but not by the idea that the U.S. military is, on some level, cheating. War sucks, and so does terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/332 "2012-10-19T04:57:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > War sucks, and so does terrorism. In that case, we should stop engaging in terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/333 "2012-10-19T10:20:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Translation: > > Based on an event in Sudan you’ve decided that Middle Easternors see no difference between Americans and Germans. > > That strikes me as remarkably stupid. > > Presumably you also have no problem making assumptions about how “New Yorkers” react based on something that happens in El Salvador since Salvadorans and New Yorkers are both “Americans.” > > Is it also safe to assume you’re very familiar with the relationship between Germans and the Middle East and can talk in detail about how it differs from the experiences of Americans. > > Also you failed to answer my questions as to how you can be so certain about the feeling of Middle Easterners. > > So please, how many Middle Eastern countries have you visited and how long have you spent there? > > Also, how many Middle Easterners have you spoken with about the situation? > > Thanks. Right, good deflection - I fail to understand what your questions have to do with a moral justification with the USA sending in drones and killing people. Hint: when mentioning America, generally the USA is meant (unless otherwise stated), not understanding this in this context is very stupid and since you are the only one that questioned that, I assume you are just deflecting - Since I never said, that the people in the Middle East don’t know that there are different nations, but we are all considered Westerners. Hint: with Westerners most nations in Western Europe (continent), Israle, North America (USA, Canda) etc is ment. [After all, we are activly stealing their rainclouds](http://www.iranfocus.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25945:ahmadinejad-accuses-the-west-of-stealing-irans-rain-again&catid=4:iran-general&Itemid=26) :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/334 "2012-10-19T12:02:37Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > After all, we are activly stealing their rainclouds. And sending [sharks](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3995302,00.html) to menace their beaches. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/335 "2012-10-19T12:15:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It shows that when we _actually_ want to get a specific guy instead of just blowing up some man who may or may not be a valid target and justifying it after the fact, we _don’t_ send drones. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/336 "2012-10-19T13:35:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, in the case of the highest-profile target imaginable, Obama went against the advice of his staff and ordered a dangerous Navy SEAL raid instead of sending a drone because he felt it was worth the gamble to prove Bin Laden was there. It was a difficult decision that nearly got people killed and provoked an international incident, so… drone strikes debunked, I guess. Both special forces missions and drone strikes represent violations of national territorial sovereignty (unlike espionage missions), less egregiously in the case of special forces missions, which have a much better track record of excluding injury to civilian life and property than drone strikes. However, they both violate territorial sovereignty, and as such should not be practiced by signatories to both the U.N. Charter ([Article 2, Section 4](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Charter#Article_2) states “_All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations._”) as well as the [Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_International_Civil_Aviation), which [states](http://avisupser.dgrsolutions.com/airlaws/chicago1944_e.html) “_The contracting States recognize that every State has complete and exclusive sovereignty over the airspace above its territory._” in Article 1 and “_No aircraft capable of being flown without a pilot shall be flown without a pilot over the territory of a contracting State without special authorization by that State and in accordance with the terms of such authorization._” in Article 8. The United States, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen are all members of the United Nations as well as [signatories](http://www2.icao.int/en/leb/List%20of%20Parties/Chicago_EN.pdf) to the Chicago Convention. As such, drone strikes by the US inside the territory of the other three nations are in violation of treaty agreements _unless_ those other governments acquiesce to these strikes. However, there are recent indications in [all](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/afghan-commanders-show-new-defiance-in-dealings-with-americans/2012/05/11/gIQAMdNTHU_story.html) [three](http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/national/22-May-2012/zardari-calls-for-drones-halt-csf-dues-apology) [nations](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/17/us-yemen-drones-idUSBRE89G0VJ20121017) that this period of acquiescence may be drawing to an end. If that comes to pass, then the US would have to formally declare war on these nations if it wished to continue its policy of drone strikes. There is a [roughly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War) [analogous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Barbary_War) precedent in American history. Of course, this would be an extremely unlikely course of events. Far more likely is that the US will simply have to get by without the ability to carry out these drone strikes. I eagerly anticipate that day. From the quoted article above about Afghan resistance to the policy of drone strikes: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **The Washington Post** > > “In the last two months, 14 to 16 [night] operations have been rejected by the Afghans,” said Gen. Sher Mohammad Karimi, the top Afghan army officer. “The U.S. has said, ‘This operation better be conducted. It’s a high-value target.’ Then my people said, ‘It’s a high-value target. I agree with you. But there are so many civilian children and women [in the area].’ ” > > Many of the rejected night operations are later conducted once civilians are no longer in the vicinity of the targets, Karimi said. This seems to indicate that the US military can be more averse to collateral damage and still take out “high-value targets” if it chooses to do so; the fact that it has largely not, to date, done so seems to imply a callousness to foreign loss of life. Like I said, I find this brutality shameful. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/337 "2012-10-19T13:58:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Still a good example. Out of five people killed during the Bin Laden raid, three were “civilians” (or, of you prefer, “bystanders”) - brother of the courier, brother’s wife and Bin Laden’s son. > > That’s 60% “collateral damage”. During a surgical strike. So - should the SEALS have refrained from this mission to minimize civilian casualties? What a ridiculously specious argument. First off, the courier [opened fire](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1272245--six-myths-about-the-osama-bin-laden-raid) on the SEAL team, and can thus hardly be classified as a “bystander”. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **The Toronto Star** > “In fact, the SEAL team encountered only a single burst of inaccurate fire, evidently from Ibrahim Ahmed Saeed, the courier who inadvertently led the United States to bin Laden, when they first approached the compound. The team returned fire and immediately killed Saeed. The only other shots fired during the assault were fired by SEALs as they methodically cleared the house room by room, killing Saeed’s brother and his wife, bin Laden’s son, and the Al Qaeda chief himself. This process took more than 15 minutes.” Secondly, the others killed (besides bin Laden himself) were all adults. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **The Toronto Star** > “It should be noted that having encountered that initial fire, the team members had to assume that the other occupants of the house were armed and likely to shoot at them, even though this did not happen.” Thirdly, there were many [children](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/05/bin-laden-death-family-compound) present who escaped the raid without serious injury. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **The Guardian** > “All in all, at the time of the raid the compound was inhabited by eight or nine children aged from two to 12, three women and at least four men.” I cannot believe that you are arguing in good faith that the aftermath of this raid is in any way comparable to that from the [Wech Baghtu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_attack) or [Deh Bala](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deh_Bala_wedding_party_bombing) drone strikes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/338 "2012-10-19T14:33:20Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > First off, the courier [opened fire](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1272245--six-myths-about-the-osama-bin-laden-raid) on the SEAL team, and can thus hardly be classified as a “bystander”. He didn’t say the courier was a bystander. He said the courier’s brother was a bystander, and your cite confirms he did not shoot at them. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/339 "2012-10-19T14:42:26Z")
Oh, and Marley 23? You posted this a while back: > [@Marley23](#): > > I admit that’s difficult. But if people could even point to an increase in terrorist recruiting and terrorist attacks since this program started they could make a case that it’s been counterproductive overall. Can anyone do that? I don’t think so. You might want to check some [recent news](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/25/drone-attacks-pakistan-counterproductive-report). The website for the academic study referenced in The Guardian also [states](http://livingunderdrones.org/report-strategy/): > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **The Stanford International Human Rights & Conflict Resolution Clinic** > > ‘It is clear from polling and our research team’s interviews that drone strikes breed resentment and discontent toward the US, and there is evidence to suggest that the strikes have aided militant recruitment and motivated terrorist activity.’ > > '"Many of the journalists, NGO and humanitarian workers, medical professionals, and Pakistani governmental officials with whom we spoke expressed their belief that, on balance, drone strikes likely increase terrorism. Syed Akhunzada Chittan, for example, a parliamentarian from North Waziristan, expressed his conviction that “for every militant killed,” many more are born.[50] In another interview, a Pakistani professional told us that a professional school classmate had joined the Taliban after a drone strike killed a friend of his.[51] Noor Behram is a Waziri-based journalist who has spent years photographing and interviewing victims of drone strikes. Having personally witnessed the immediate aftermath of numerous strikes, he relates: “When people are out there picking up body parts after a drone strike, it would be very easy to convince those people to fight against America.”[52] > > Numerous policy analysts, officials, and independent observers have come to similar conclusions. David Kilcullen, a former advisor to US General David Petraeus, has stated that, “every one of these dead noncombatants represents an alienated family, a new desire for revenge, and more recruits for a militant movement that has grown exponentially even as drone strikes have increased.”[53] Der Spiegel has also reported that in Pakistan “militants profit in a gruesome way from the drone missions. After each attack in which innocent civilians die, they win over some of the relatives as supporters—with a few even volunteering for suicide attacks.”[54] As a May 2012 New York Times article succinctly put it, “[d]rones have replaced Guantánamo as the recruiting tool of choice for militants.”[55]’ Imran Khan [said](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19856039) much the same only a couple weeks ago. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/340 "2012-10-19T14:45:32Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > You might want to check some [recent news](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/25/drone-attacks-pakistan-counterproductive-report). Already discussed within this thread. There’s no data there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=18)