# Americans - how do you morally justify drone strikes in the "War on Terror"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440 "2012-10-11T18:05:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/41 "2012-10-11T19:14:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > There have always been groups that opposed the US and would like to harm us, we have dealt with them without bombing innocent civilians in the past. “Would like to” is very slippery phrasing. Last I checked, these groups did not just _want_ to hurt people. They successfully did so in Dar es Salaam, Nairobi, New York, Washington, Bali, Madrid, London, and other cities. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/42 "2012-10-11T19:15:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That is one of the more offensive posts I’ve ever seen on this site and that’s saying quite a lot. Just curious, which part do you disagree with, “some people need killing” or “drones are better than carpet bombing”? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/43 "2012-10-11T19:15:16Z")
Lot or rhetoric but not a lot of facts in this “debate”. Fact is, most of these drone operations occur in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In the case of the latter, with the tacit knowledge and support of the Pakistani government, in spite of their public protests. (We aren’t launching these things from Virginia). I hear a lot of complaints about the “War on Terror”. Do people think we shouldn’t be actively trying to dismantle the Talaban and Al Quaida’s terror network? Or do they not like the manner in which we are doing it? Really, the justification for using drones in such a conflict is that they offer the greatest opportunity to take out targets with precision with minimal risk or political backlash. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/44 "2012-10-11T19:15:45Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > What’s the moral difference between a drone strike, bombing by aircraft, shelling by artillery, or sending in a bunch of soldiers to shoot a place up with M16s? > > If it isn’t moral to send a bunch of soldiers to shoot the place up, then it isn’t moral to send a drone to shoot the place up. If it is, then it is. There is no moral difference - these are all acts of aggressive war. That’s kind of my point. I don’t think any of these acts are moral unless one is the defender. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/45 "2012-10-11T19:15:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Their lives can’t be treated cheaply, though. If there is a better option than getting them killed, that option has to be considered. And sending in SEALs does not guarantee that other people don’t get killed. Drone attacks _are_ cheap. That’s why they’re so easy to pull off, and why I think they’re viewed by some with a rather cavalier attitude. Sending in actual people has the potential to be messy and risky. I think that a level of risk is good when it comes to deciding if these targets are people we actually need to remove as threats. The fact that lives aren’t cheap is kind of the point. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/46 "2012-10-11T19:16:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you have some evidence for this? History, and human nature. If the Blitz wasn’t enough to break people, then screwing around with drones bombing bystanders won’t either. And 9-11 didn’t exactly make America lose interest in killing people, either. This idea that we can bomb people into submission is in violation of human nature, and is based on the premise that foreigners are weak, cowardly creatures who won’t react like real humans _aka_ Americans would. We kill random, innocent people, and their friends and families _will_ want revenge. That’s _very_ basic human nature. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/47 "2012-10-11T19:17:22Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Your family is not going to be killed by terrorists. Talk about insignificant; there’s a better chance of your family being killed in independent car crashes. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The chance of your family being killed is essentially zero. I was speaking in the general sense and included your families as well. Please inform them that you don’t care about their safety. But reassure them that I still do. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/48 "2012-10-11T19:18:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Lot or rhetoric but not a lot of facts in this “debate”. > > Fact is, most of these drone operations occur in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In the case of the latter, with the tacit knowledge and support of the Pakistani government, in spite of their public protests. (We aren’t launching these things from Virginia). > I hear a lot of complaints about the “War on Terror”. Do people think we shouldn’t be actively trying to dismantle the Talaban and Al Quaida’s terror network? Or do they not like the manner in which we are doing it? > Really, the justification for using drones in such a conflict is that they offer the greatest opportunity to take out targets with precision with minimal risk or political backlash. The Taliban doesn’t have a ‘terror network’. They’re a loose organization of tribes in the region. The only reason the Taliban is fighting us is because we are standing in their valleys being targets. If we weren’t there, we wouldn’t have a problem with them. We’re using our very presence in Afghanistan as justification for fighting the Taliban, who is fighting us because we’re there. Neat huh? Send in the drones! ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/49 "2012-10-11T19:18:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do people think we shouldn’t be actively trying to dismantle the Talaban and Al Quaida’s terror network? Or do they not like the manner in which we are doing it? I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me it is the heavy-handed, brutal manner in which it is done, not the goal itself. > [@](#): > > Really, the justification for using drones in such a conflict is that they offer the greatest opportunity to take out targets with precision with **minimal risk or political backlash**. Minimal risk or political backlash - to the perpetrators. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/50 "2012-10-11T19:18:22Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Drone attacks _are_ cheap. That’s why they’re so easy to pull off, and why I think they’re viewed by some with a rather cavalier attitude. > > Sending in actual people has the potential to be messy and risky. I think that a level of risk is good when it comes to deciding if these targets are people we actually need to remove as threats. > > The fact that lives aren’t cheap is kind of the point. Why do you think that sending in a special forces squad to arrest or kill the terrorists is going to result in less “collateral damage” than the drone strike? Do you think the special forces use magic weapons that do not hurt civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/51 "2012-10-11T19:20:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > This idea that we can bomb people into submission is in violation of human nature No, it’s not: there have been plenty of instances where nations surrendered after bombing and wars ended. And drones strikes are not “bombing people into submission,” they’re intended to stop a terrorist group from functioning (and have apparently been effective). > [@](#): > > We kill random, innocent people, and their friends and families _will_ want revenge. That’s _very_ basic human nature. Which is why the terrorism situation has gotten so much worse since the drone strikes began in 2004 and particularly since Obama began escalating them in 2009. For example there were enormous terrorist attacks in the Western cities of \_\_\_\_\_ and \_\_\_\_\_\_ and of course \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. > [@msmith537](#): > > Fact is, most of these drone operations occur in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In the case of the latter, with the tacit knowledge and support of the Pakistani government, in spite of their public protests. (We aren’t launching these things from Virginia). That also goes for Yemen. > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Sending in actual people has the potential to be messy and risky. I think that a level of risk is good when it comes to deciding if these targets are people we actually need to remove as threats. So we agree? > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > The only reason the Taliban is fighting us is because we are standing in their valleys being targets. If we weren’t there, we wouldn’t have a problem with them. There was that September 11th kerfluffle. A little bit of a to-do, as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/52 "2012-10-11T19:23:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I was speaking in the general sense and included your families as well. Please inform them that you don’t care about their safety. But reassure them that I still do. That’s sweet, really. Thanks. I’m not sure what part you don’t understand about ‘Your family is not going to be killed by terrorists.’ They aren’t. They simply…aren’t. They’re more likely to drown. Or get hit by lightning. Or suffer an aortic dissection. The sense I get is that you’re not saying that we should be continuing the WoT because you’re family might die…you’re saying your family might die, so we must continue the WoT. There’s a difference; it’s a fine distinction, but important. > [@Marley23](#): > > There was that September 11th kerfluffle. A little bit of a to-do, as I recall. And I’m sure that by this time, we’ve exchanged dead folks at at least a 1:1 ratio. We’ve had our revenge. And it wasn’t the Taliban that attacked us; sure, they provided support for AQ, but that’s not a problem any more. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/53 "2012-10-11T19:23:50Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Well, in bin Laden’s [own words](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver), he makes reference to the death of innocents in 1, iii; 1, f; 2, d. Are you defending your position by citing a madman? That is a moral equivalency argument and I reject it. There was no intent to protect innocents by bin Laden, his intent was to cause the deaths of innocents all over the world as a means of obtaining power. > [@Fuji](#): > > There is no moral difference - these are all acts of aggressive war. That’s kind of my point. > > I don’t think any of these acts are moral unless one is the defender. You are saying pre-emptive action is never justified. I disagree. Again, I’m not arguing the pre-emptive actions in the actual drone strikes would all be justifiable pre-emptive actions, but some of them could be. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/54 "2012-10-11T19:24:14Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Since there are still people who our nation has decided need killing - there will continue to be civilian casualties. There is a point where the positive side of the act (killing bad guys with drones) is outweighed by the negative side (killing children and innocents). I think this administration has done an outstanding job of telling people that they’ve never crossed that line, that every strike is undeniably necessary and the civilian casualties are minimal. I’m just not sure I believe them. I cited to this in the other thread, but here it is again. [A study by Stanford Law and NYU into drone attacks in Pakistan.](http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/organization/149662/doc/slspublic/Stanford_NYU_LIVING_UNDER_DRONES.pdf) It makes it pretty clear that the drone program may not be the necessary evil with minimal civilian casualties that we are told it is. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/55 "2012-10-11T19:25:12Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > That’s sweet, really. Thanks. > > I’m not sure what part you don’t understand about ‘Your family is not going to be killed by terrorists.’ > > They aren’t. They simply…aren’t. > > They’re more likely to drown. Or get hit by lightning. Or suffer an aortic dissection. You can tell that to the average Pakistani/Afghani family as well. ‘You family is not going to be killed by drones.’ They aren’t. They simply…aren’t. They’re more likely to drown. Or get hit by lightning. Or suffer an aortic dissection. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/56 "2012-10-11T19:26:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What’s the alternative? War, which causes more of the same damage? “Slaughtering innocents” isn’t the goal, it’s an unintended consequence of violence. No, war is not preferable. Though I’m not a pacifist, I’d say war has been our greatest blight as a species and is to be avoided unless there is absolutely no other reasonable alternative. > [@](#): > > The OP addressed this by saying drone strikes are “cowardly,” if that gives you any idea of the sentiment. Tu quoque though it may be, I’d respond that terrorism is cowardly: terrorists know what they’re doing and they expect to be targeted; their victims are just going to school or work or church. Drone strikes aim for combatants and cause less damage than open warfare. If I may channel [Bill Maher](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97KllcZidKQ) for a moment - who has bigger balls, the guy in Colorado using a joystick to kill people 8000 miles away, or the guy who flies a plane into a building at 500 miles per hour? Al Qaeda may be _evil_, but they’re not cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/57 "2012-10-11T19:28:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You can tell that to the average Pakistani/Afghani family as well. ‘You family is not going to be killed by drones.’ They aren’t. They simply…aren’t. They’re more likely to drown. Or get hit by lightning. Or suffer an aortic dissection. You tell them: > [@Hamlet](#): > > I cited to this in the other thread, but here it is again. [A study by Stanford Law and NYU into drone attacks in Pakistan.](http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/organization/149662/doc/slspublic/Stanford_NYU_LIVING_UNDER_DRONES.pdf) It makes it pretty clear that the drone program may not be the necessary evil with minimal civilian casualties that we are told it is. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/58 "2012-10-11T19:32:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you have some evidence for this? I’m hoping against hope that maybe at some point people will consider acknowledging that there’s no evidence for it. [QUOTE=[US drone attacks are no laughing matter, Mr Obama | Mehdi Hasan | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/dec/28/us-drone-attacks-no-laughing-matter)] Take Faisal Shahzad, the so-called Times Square bomber. One of the first things the Pakistani-born US citizen said upon his arrest was: “How would you feel if people attacked the United States? You are attacking a sovereign Pakistan.” Asked by the judge at his trial as to how he could justify planting a bomb near innocent women and children, Shahzad responded by saying that US drone strikes “don’t see children, they don’t see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody.” [/quote] Or does a terrorist stating outright that he did it because the US bombed Pakistani civilians first not count? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/59 "2012-10-11T19:33:20Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You don’t have the industrial base to manage drone strikes - tough. And if you don’t have the security apparatus to prevent a couple of your civilian airliners from being flown into skyscrapers, tough. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/60 "2012-10-11T19:34:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That is one of the more offensive posts I’ve ever seen on this site and that’s saying quite a lot. And that post has more hyperbole than most I’ve seen on this site and that’s saying quite a bit. It’s a tab flippant perhaps but offensive? There are some evil people in this world, and in a war, some of those evil men should be killed to prevent them from killing innocents. If possible, no innocent people should be killed in that attack. What is so offensive there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=4)