# Americans - how do you morally justify drone strikes in the "War on Terror"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440 "2012-10-11T18:05:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/61 "2012-10-11T19:35:19Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > And that post has more hyperbole than most I’ve seen on this site and that’s saying quite a bit. > > It’s a tab flippant perhaps but offensive? > > There are some evil people in this world, and in a war, some of those evil men should be killed to prevent them from killing innocents. If possible, no innocent people should be killed in that attack. What is so offensive there? So if it’s not possible to remove the target without killing innocent people, should the attack continue or not? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/62 "2012-10-11T19:35:53Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > That’s sweet, really. Thanks. > > I’m not sure what part you don’t understand about ‘Your family is not going to be killed by terrorists.’ > > They aren’t. They simply…aren’t. > > They’re more likely to drown. Or get hit by lightning. Or suffer an aortic dissection. > > The sense I get is that you’re not saying that we should be continuing the WoT because you’re family might die…you’re saying your family might die, so we must continue the WoT. > > There’s a difference; it’s a fine distinction, but important. Go explain this to all the innocent victims of terrorism who have died already. Oh wait… there aren’t any according to your statistical proof. Come back after you explain to your family that you don’t care if they are killed by terrorists. > [@](#): > > And I’m sure that by this time, we’ve exchanged dead folks at at least a 1:1 ratio. We’ve had our revenge. And it wasn’t the Taliban that attacked us; sure, they provided support for AQ, but that’s not a problem any more. I don’t support revenge killings. That would imply taking the lives of innocents as reparation for the deaths of other innocents. The counts don’t matter. Killings are either justified or not. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/63 "2012-10-11T19:38:40Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Go explain this to all the innocent victims of terrorism who have died already. Oh wait… there aren’t any according to your statistical proof. > > Come back after you explain to your family that you don’t care if they are killed by terrorists. It’s obvious that I can’t convince you to let go of your belief that killing some shitheel in Yemen will directly save your family from fiery death. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/64 "2012-10-11T19:40:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think we’re due for an explanation of the cowardice and arrogance and hypocrisy already. Or you could stop using such loaded and unsupported terms and argue the facts. Well, here’s your [hypocrisy](http://www.state.gov/j/drl/hr/index.htm), courtesy of the US Dep’t of State. Everyone over the age of 12 recognizes that as a crock of shit. At least bin Laden and Hitler were forthright in their objectives. As for the arrogance, well - when the US stops the pushing the rest of the world around, you might have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/65 "2012-10-11T19:49:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Are you defending your position by citing a madman? That is a moral equivalency argument and I reject it. There was no intent to protect innocents by bin Laden, his intent was to cause the deaths of innocents all over the world as a means of obtaining power. Not at all. I’m glad that piece of shit got his and is currently decomposing in the Arabian Sea However, you had specifically [asked](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15580219&postcount=24): “How could they have justified 9/11 as a way to prevent the deaths of innocents?” I’m only giving you their justification. I certainly didn’t say I agreed with it. > [@](#): > > You are saying pre-emptive action is never justified. I disagree. > > Again, I’m not arguing the pre-emptive actions in the actual drone strikes would all be justifiable pre-emptive actions, but some of them could be. I actually didn’t say that, but to bring up another parallel, in 1938, the UK, France, Czechoslovakia, (and the USSR, though Chamberlain didn’t think to ask them) were more than ready to fight if Hitler went ahead with [Case Green](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Gr%C3%BCn_%28Czechoslovakia%29). However, I don’t think that Britain and France would’ve been morally justified in invading Germany in, say, '36, after they occupied the Rhineland. Those two situations are not equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/66 "2012-10-11T19:49:27Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > It’s obvious that I can’t convince you to let go of your belief that killing some shitheel in Yemen will directly save your family from fiery death. You can’t because it’s not true. There are many people who would kill any American they could, including you and your family. Please explain your reasoning to the victims of 9/11. Tell them you wouldn’t have approved of those terrorists being killed before they were allowed to attack us. Tell them about all the concern the terrorists had for our first responders too. It’s easy to live with your head buried in the sand pretending bad people don’t exist and don’t kill people. But when you have your head in the sand like that you leave your ass exposed. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/67 "2012-10-11T19:51:47Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I’m not sure what part you don’t understand about ‘Your family is not going to be killed by terrorists.’ > > They aren’t. They simply…aren’t. > > They’re more likely to drown. Or get hit by lightning. Or suffer an aortic dissection. This is true in a broader context, but in regard to how to deal with terrorism it’s an irrelevant dodge that adds nothing to the discussion. It’s sort of the equivalent of calling someone a 'fraidy-cat. Terrorism is a small risk but that doesn’t mean governments can’t or shouldn’t deal with it; national security is one of their primary purposes. Lots of risks are small but still need to be handled. > [@Fuji](#): > > No, war is not preferable. Though I’m not a pacifist, I’d say war has been our greatest blight as a species and is to be avoided unless there is absolutely no other reasonable alternative. That’s pretty much where we are with drone strikes. > [@](#): > > Al Qaeda may be _evil_, but they’re not cowardly. The ones who go on suicide attacks are committed, but they’re usually committed to killing people who don’t know they’re targets. The gangs who shoot children, not so much. And I don’t give a fuck about this, really. They can have a stone-age version of bravery while burning schools and murdering women, and I’ll accept U.S. soldiers being called cowards for using first-world technology to try to kill terrorists while attempting to minimize the harm to other people - and that’s apart from the broader principles at work here. > [@Grumman](#): > > Or does a terrorist stating outright that he did it because the US bombed Pakistani civilians first not count? It counts, but I think you aren’t addressing my broader point. **Der Trihs** was saying these strikes only increase the determination of the terrorists and make more enemies. If so, we should be seeing a lot more of these - and it seems to me that we’re seeing less of them, and because a lot of Al Qaeda leaders have been captured or killed, the attempted attacks that do come closer to fruition have been smaller and sometimes derailed by incompetence even compared to September 11th, which wasn’t supremely complicated but was efficient and was handled by people who knew what they were doing. There are many factors involved there, but it’s fair to point out that the drone strikes are one of them. September 11th was in 2001, the Madrid bombing was in 2004, and London in 2005. Nevermind the fact that those attacks themselves got progressively smaller- why haven’t there been any like them in recent years? If the drone strikes were so counterproductive and were making everything worse, shouldn’t there have been more by now? If the drone strikes are not making everything worse, doesn’t that whole line of reasoning sound a lot like the Black Knight in Monty Python? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/68 "2012-10-11T19:52:19Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > You tell them: Take that 500 and divide it by total population. Then take the 9/11’s 3000 and divide it. Then compare. So - what is more likely, being killed by a drone or drowning? Or aortic dissection. After all that was your logic, why doesn’t it apply in the drone-killings as well? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/69 "2012-10-11T19:53:35Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You can’t because it’s not true. There are many people who would kill any American they could, including you and your family. > > Please explain your reasoning to the victims of 9/11. Tell them you wouldn’t have approved of those terrorists being killed before they were allowed to attack us. Tell them about all the concern the terrorists had for our first responders too. > > It’s easy to live with your head buried in the sand pretending bad people don’t exist and don’t kill people. But when you have your head in the sand like that you leave your ass exposed. and > [@AngryPakistani](#): > > You can’t because it’s not true. There are many Americans who would kill any Pakistani they could, including you and your family. > > Please explain your reasoning to the civilian victims of drone attacks. Tell them you wouldn’t have approved of those Americans being killed before they were allowed to attack us. Tell them about all the concern the Americans had for our first responders, or children, too. > > It’s easy to live with your head buried in the sand pretending bad people don’t exist and don’t kill people. But when you have your head in the sand like that you leave your ass exposed. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/70 "2012-10-11T19:53:48Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Not at all. I’m glad that piece of shit got his and is currently decomposing in the Arabian Sea > > However, you had specifically [asked](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15580219&postcount=24): > > “How could they have justified 9/11 as a way to prevent the deaths of innocents?” > > I’m only giving you their justification. I certainly didn’t say I agreed with it. A justification does not mean something is justified. I could say I’m justified in killing strangers because I feel like it, but that wouldn’t be accepted by rational people. Neither was bin Laden’s ‘justification’. This is what we are arguing here, what it is that makes up a justification for killing your enemies. > [@](#): > > I actually didn’t say that, but to bring up another parallel, in 1938, the UK, France, Czechoslovakia, (and the USSR, though Chamberlain didn’t think to ask them) were more than ready to fight if Hitler went ahead with [Case Green](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Gr%C3%BCn_%28Czechoslovakia%29). However, I don’t think that Britain and France would’ve been morally justified in invading Germany in, say, '36, after they occupied the Rhineland. Those two situations are not equivalent. Your statement sounded like you only thought defensive acts could be justified. If that’s not what you meant we don’t have a disagreement on that topic. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/71 "2012-10-11T19:55:26Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me it is the heavy-handed, brutal manner in which it is done, not the goal itself. Killing terrorists is heavy, brutal stuff. > [@Fuji](#): > > Minimal risk or political backlash - to the perpetrators. Yes, obviously there is a much higher risk when you are on the receiving end of a drone strike. > [@Fuji](#): > > Al Qaeda may be evil, but they’re not cowardly. “Cowardly”? What are you twelve years old? It’s not really about keeping score of body counts or proving who has the “biggest balls”. It’s about eliminating Al Quada’s capacity to make terror. WIW, I don’t like the concept of the “War on Terror”. “War” implies a discrete beginning and end. There will always be terrorists and criminals of some kind. Protecting the country from outside threats will always be a constantly evolving process. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/72 "2012-10-11T19:57:46Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Well, here’s your [hypocrisy](http://www.state.gov/j/drl/hr/index.htm), courtesy of the US Dep’t of State. Everyone over the age of 12 recognizes that as a crock of shit. That’s a rant, not an argument. The U.S.’ human rights record is deeply flawed, but so is everybody’s. > [@](#): > > At least bin Laden and Hitler were forthright in their objectives. They weren’t, actually. They were both mass killers who said over and over again that they wanted peace. This kind of comment is just repugnant and hurts your argument. If you can’t tell the difference between someone who kills out of hatred and calls it self-defense and someone who kills in self-defense even if his aim is off, this thread is not the right argument for you. > [@](#): > > As for the arrogance, well - when the US stops the pushing the rest of the world around, you might have a point. This is also a non-argument. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/73 "2012-10-11T19:59:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > “Cowardly”? What are you twelve years old? Save it for the Pit, please. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/74 "2012-10-11T19:59:30Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > … > > - Voters, mainly conservative/Republican ones, who want daily drone strikes until every Muslim who has something bad to say about the US is dead. > > … If all they were doing was saying bad things about us, we wouldn’t be there. We are getting nothing from that stinky hell hole. Unfortunately for the terrorists and the countries that house them they sometimes do more than say bad things. They have been identified and placed upon a pedestal of their own making, one in which we shall knock them off (sometimes by drone attack, sometimes 50 cal rifles, and sometimes by numerous other methods) Unfortunately for the innocent ones that cannot change the way they are being used shields, they are sometimes cannon fodder. Thus is the way of things. You’ll never find a moral justification for “collateral damage”, ever. But it happens in war. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/75 "2012-10-11T19:59:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Take that 500 and divide it by total population. Then take the 9/11’s 3000 and divide it. Then compare. > > So - what is more likely, being killed by a drone or drowning? Or aortic dissection. After all that was your logic, why doesn’t it apply in the drone-killings as well? It doesn’t count because you’re using as justification for only-moderately-dsicriminate drone strikes. What you’re saying, in effect, is that civilian casualties are acceptable because 1) we haven’t killed as large a proportion of civilians as were killed on 9/11 and 2) we’re preventing another 9/11. Both are fallacious. > [@Kearsen](#): > > Unfortunately for the innocent ones that cannot change the way they are being used shields, they are sometimes cannon fodder. Thus is the way of things. In many cases, they’re not being used as shields. They’re just…there. As children tend to be. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/76 "2012-10-11T20:01:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > … But when you have your head in the sand like that you leave your ass exposed… Can I steal this line, please??! ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/77 "2012-10-11T20:04:55Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > It doesn’t count because you’re using as justification for only-moderately-dsicriminate drone strikes. > > What you’re saying, in effect, is that civilian casualties are acceptable because 1) we haven’t killed as large a proportion of civilians as were killed on 9/11 and 2) we’re preventing another 9/11. > > Both are fallacious. I won’t speak for him but what I am saying is: Drone strikes provide the best result with the least loss of life for the good guys (us) ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/78 "2012-10-11T20:06:45Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > It doesn’t count because you’re using as justification for only-moderately-dsicriminate drone strikes. > > What you’re saying, in effect, is that civilian casualties are acceptable because 1) we haven’t killed as large a proportion of civilians as were killed on 9/11 and 2) we’re preventing another 9/11. > > Both are fallacious. > > In many cases, they’re not being used as shields. They’re just…there. As children tend to be. Unsuspecting shields, but shields nonetheless ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/79 "2012-10-11T20:08:19Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I won’t speak for him but what I am saying is: > > Drone strikes provide the best result with the least loss of life for the good guys (us) And to expound upon my exchange with **Marley2** 3, war shouldn’t be cheap. > [@](#): > > It is well that war is so terrible - otherwise we would grow too fond of it. - Robert E. Lee The problem with the WoT is that it’s \*not \*terrible…for our side. It’s cheap. Do you think that, in the absence of drones, we would still be continuing the WoT to this extent? > [@Kearsen](#): > > Unsuspecting shields, but shields nonetheless Human shields are placed to prevent an attack. Saying that they’re shields when they’re only incidental doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/80 "2012-10-11T20:09:31Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > And to expound upon my exchange with **Marley2** 3, war shouldn’t be cheap. Because… um… is this more “cowardly” stuff, or should we switch to something like “sporting?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=5)