# Americans - how do you morally justify drone strikes in the "War on Terror"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440 "2012-10-11T18:05:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/121 "2012-10-11T21:47:03Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > If I may channel [Bill Maher](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97KllcZidKQ) for a moment - who has bigger balls, the guy in Colorado using a joystick to kill people 8000 miles away, or the guy who flies a plane into a building at 500 miles per hour? I would say, respectfully, that such a statement shows that neither you nor Maher really understand the mindset of Jihadists nor what having “big balls” means. The 911 hijackers sincerely believed that when they died they would immediately be transported by angels to paradise where they would spend eternity getting services by beautiful virgins. Most of them probably died with erections. I should add that I’m not trying to be puerile. In his letters to his men, Muhammad Atta reminded them that “the women of Islam are waiting for you whispering 'come hither friend of God”. Also, almost all of them were unmarried and came from societies where young women generally didn’t “put out” because there were extremely strong taboos against doing so and serious punishments were meted out to women who violated them, most of the men were probably virgins themselves(at least regarding women). Never underestimate the power of sexual frustration. Those men weren’t brave in the face of death. They chose to embrace it because they believed they’d be lavishly rewarded in paradise for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/122 "2012-10-11T21:49:23Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > I keep citing bullshit, because my debating opponents make comments like this: Wait, what? Are you saying you know your comments about Hitler and Bin Laden were bullshit, but you had to say it because … I later called them bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/123 "2012-10-11T21:49:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not the only country that kills people outside its borders directly or indirectly. Is this about drone strikes specifically, or counterintelligence and counterterrorism and proxy war in general? It is about drone strikes specifically. I have no problem with James Bond and his ilk running around neutralizing ne’er do wells. > [@](#): > > Then don’t make me quote Hitler and Bin Laden lying about their intentions. So are you also conceding that the platitudes mouthed by the US government about human rights, freedom of man, blah blah blah, are also just so much bullshit? > [@](#): > > Oops! Munich Agreement, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Do I need to say any more about the honesty of Hitler’s government than that? And as for Bin Laden: > "Neither I had any knowledge of these attacks nor I consider the killing of innocent women, children, and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children, and other people. Such a practice is forbidden ever in the course of a battle. … I have already said that we are against the American system, not against its people, whereas in these attacks, the common American people have been killed. " > -late September 2011. I’m not here as a character witness for either of these shitbags. My point is that, at least in _some_ of their public pronouncements, both Hitler and bin Laden clearly expressed their ill will towards the rest of the world. It would be refreshingly honest to see a prominent US official say something along the lines of: _“Yeah, we’re the biggest dog on the block - so fucking what? What are you gonna do about it, you speck of dirt? We’ll do whatever we feel is necessary to further our interests, and if you don’t like it, tough shit.”_ Such a statement would be reprehensible, but given the public pose of the US government to date, at least it wouldn’t stink of hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > This still isn’t an argument, but if you’re going to ask loaded questions and answer them for me, at least it’ll save me some time. I can’t handle being active in two hot threads at once, but I certainly have no problem in starting another thread, “Why does the US push the rest of the world around and think it’s justified?” or some such. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/124 "2012-10-11T21:51:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Most of the people killed are children or ‘high profile targets’, whatever that means. What if all the rest are enemy combatants killing the local population? Your argument falls apart because you aren’t addressing the results of the operation, just focusing on the flaws. I’m not just focusing on the flaws, but I’m not about to ignore them either. My main reason for being in this thread is to make sure that we go beyond “can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs” line of thinking and seriously look at the harm this drone program is causing too. Sure there’s now more dead “terrorists”, but there are also dead children and dead civilians. I’m not comfortable with 75% of people we kill in drone attacks are “targets”. I’m not comfortable with only 2% of people we kill in drone attacks being “high profile targets”. I’m not comfortable with 25% of the people we kill in drone attacks being civilian. And I’m not comfortable with 5% of the people we kill in drone attacks being children. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Would you let 100 innocent people die at the hands of terrorists because stopping them might result in the death of 1 innocent? No. If you could guarantee (more than “what if”) that the number of civilians killed by the terrorists would be more than the civilians killed by a drone attack, I’d agree with you. When you CAN guarantee that, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/125 "2012-10-11T21:55:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > War is not a way to prove how big your balls are. That’s how we wind up in stupid wars taking down dictators who are not a threat to us. > > War should be an act of last resort. If it is, then you have already satisfied the basic morality question\*, now your just haggling over price. How many of your own soldiers do you put in danger to protect the lives of non-combatants who are in the war zone? How much money do you spend to conduct direct strikes instead of less accurate strikes? > \*Is it moral for us to decide to go to war, knowing that thousands of people will wind up dead as a result? No disagreement with anything you said here. I agree that introducing cowardice into this discussion was a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/126 "2012-10-11T22:05:24Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > It is about drone strikes specifically. I have no problem with James Bond and his ilk running around neutralizing ne’er do wells. Why? Both can be acts of war and can kill innocent people, and you’ve said a couple of times that you wished you hadn’t introduced the whole “cowardice” thing. What other reason is there? > [@](#): > > So are you also conceding that the platitudes mouthed by the US government about human rights, freedom of man, blah blah blah, are also just so much bullshit? No, although I have acknowledged that its human rights record has many flaws. I do think its human rights record is much better than that of the Taliban and Al Qaeda (and yes, I’m setting the bar low - that’s what you’re using as a comparison). You said: > [@Fuji](#): > > At least bin Laden and Hitler were forthright in their objectives. As compared, obviously, to the U.S, which isn’t forthright. I pointed out that this was completely wrong. At times Hitler and Bin Laden were honest and at other times they lied their asses off depending on whatever suited their purposes. So now you’re down to saying they _sometimes_ told the truth about their intentions (although even at those times they didn’t announce their other statements had been lies, which creates a big believability problem), while the U.S. is hypocritical for refusing to agree with your strawman position about its actions. For some reason you’re now saying you “had” to spout that bullshit in response to something else I said _later in the thread_. How does all this work? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/127 "2012-10-11T22:09:37Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m not just focusing on the flaws, but I’m not about to ignore them either. My main reason for being in this thread is to make sure that we go beyond “can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs” line of thinking and seriously look at the harm this drone program is causing too. Sure there’s now more dead “terrorists”, but there are also dead children and dead civilians. > > I’m not comfortable with 75% of people we kill in drone attacks are “targets”. I’m not comfortable with only 2% of people we kill in drone attacks being “high profile targets”. I’m not comfortable with 25% of the people we kill in drone attacks being civilian. And I’m not comfortable with 5% of the people we kill in drone attacks being children. > No. If you could guarantee (more than “what if”) that the number of civilians killed by the terrorists would be more than the civilians killed by a drone attack, I’d agree with you. When you CAN guarantee that, let me know. Well based on your clarification, we have no major disagreement on these points. I’m not comfortable with the level of civilian casualties based on what I know of the targets. None of us know enough about the specifics to say for sure, but indeed, the numbers are troubling. As for the second point, I was just trying to establish the principle you were working on. You’ve made it clear. ---
**Author:** ![Naive\_Evian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Naive\_Evian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naive_Evian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/128 "2012-10-11T22:14:02Z")
The drone strikes might be moral, if they are conducted against legitimate targets, but nobody here knows whether they are. Nobody here knows what procedures are in place. Nobody here knows why standard of proof is used before targeting someone. Nobody here knows what collateral damage is acceptable. Nobody here knows what, if any, review process is in place to prosecute people who make negligent mistakes. Nobody here knows whether children are targeted. Nobody here knows wether the killing are legal. Nobody here know enough to say whether the program is moral. Whichn is how a democratic country should run. The president should have the power to kill people and keep all the details secret without any potential consequences. Go America. This country is setting a great example. We are truly shining city of a hill. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/129 "2012-10-11T22:33:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why? Both can be acts of war and can kill innocent people, and you’ve said a couple of times that you wished you hadn’t introduced the whole “cowardice” thing. What other reason is there? Because when espionage missions are successful (which I deduce is most of the time, given the paucity of stories like [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mabhouh)), there actually is - literally - no collateral damage. > [@](#): > > No, although I have acknowledged that its human rights record has many flaws. I do think its human rights record is much better than that of the Taliban and Al Qaeda (and yes, I’m setting the bar low - that’s what you’re using as a comparison). No argument here. I lived 35 mostly happy years in the US. > [@](#): > > You said: > As compared, obviously, to the U.S, which isn’t forthright. I pointed out that this was completely wrong. At times Hitler and Bin Laden were honest and at other times they lied their asses off depending on whatever suited their purposes. So now you’re down to saying they _sometimes_ told the truth about their intentions (although even at those times they didn’t announce their other statements had been lies, which creates a big believability problem), while the U.S. is hypocritical for refusing to agree with your strawman position about its actions. For some reason you’re now saying you “had” to spout that bullshit in response to something else I said _later in the thread_. How does all this work? This really is a side-issue, but again, I was only talking about avowed public intention versus practiced behavior as a means of determining degree of hypocrisy. Both authors explicitly pursued lawless courses of action, whereas the United States prides itself (rightly) upon the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/130 "2012-10-11T22:46:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I would say, respectfully, that such a statement shows that neither you nor Maher really understand the mindset of Jihadists nor what having “big balls” means. For at least some subset of crazy people, some of the reason we call 'em crazy in the first place is for showing reckless, impulsive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/131 "2012-10-11T23:06:50Z")
> [@Naive\_Evian](#): > > The drone strikes might be moral, if they are conducted against legitimate targets, but nobody here knows whether they are. Nobody here knows what procedures are in place. Nobody here knows why standard of proof is used before targeting someone. Nobody here knows what collateral damage is acceptable. Nobody here knows what, if any, review process is in place to prosecute people who make negligent mistakes. Nobody here knows whether children are targeted. Nobody here knows wether the killing are legal. Nobody here know enough to say whether the program is moral. > > Whichn is how a democratic country should run. The president should have the power to kill people and keep all the details secret without any potential consequences. > > Go America. This country is setting a great example. We are truly shining city of a hill. I don’t expect the US to release all intel data for our review before the fact, and even after the fact can put intel operations at risk. However, there ARE non-military people who ARE kept in the loop, and these people were elected by us to represent us: [http://intelligence.house.gov/about/hpsci-majority-members](http://intelligence.house.gov/about/hpsci-majority-members) [http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/memberscurrent.html](http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/memberscurrent.html) So if you want to know if we are truly killing bad guys - call your duly elected Rep or Senator. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/132 "2012-10-11T23:07:32Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Because when espionage missions are successful (which I deduce is most of the time, given the paucity of stories like [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mabhouh)), there actually is - literally - no collateral damage. I think you’re focusing on the rosiest scenarios. > [@](#): > > This really is a side-issue, but again, I was only talking about avowed public intention versus practiced behavior as a means of determining degree of hypocrisy. And you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/133 "2012-10-11T23:10:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Well based on your clarification, we have no major disagreement on these points. > > I’m not comfortable with the level of civilian casualties based on what I know of the targets. None of us know enough about the specifics to say for sure, but indeed, the numbers are troubling. > > As for the second point, I was just trying to establish the principle you were working on. You’ve made it clear. But why are they troubling? What are you comparing them to, if anything? The ideal is that only bad guys die - yes. But there **always** will be collateral damage, especially when we fight in urban areas. Do you want to never fight in those zones? One child = “safebase”? I remember going through the entire “Just War” discussion a couple of decades ago, and terrorist groups weren’t even the main opponent on the radar then. We talked about whether bombing a munitions factory or a shipyard was justified during a war effort, or hitting a farmer’s fields. Some argued that mining Hanoi Harbor was evil, or bombing the rice paddy dike system. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/134 "2012-10-12T00:22:18Z")
> [@Naive\_Evian](#): > > The drone strikes might be moral, if they are conducted against legitimate targets, but nobody here knows whether they are. Nobody here knows what procedures are in place. Nobody here knows why standard of proof is used before targeting someone. Nobody here knows what collateral damage is acceptable. Nobody here knows what, if any, review process is in place to prosecute people who make negligent mistakes. Nobody here knows whether children are targeted. Nobody here knows wether the killing are legal. Nobody here know enough to say whether the program is moral. > > Whichn is how a democratic country should run. The president should have the power to kill people and keep all the details secret without any potential consequences. > > Go America. This country is setting a great example. We are truly shining city of a hill. Are these statements not equally applicable to nearly every military action in our history? Did you personally review the list of bombing targets in 1991 during the Gulf War and make some recommendation as to whether the US should bomb the suspected weapons factory that had a sign in front reading “Baby Milk Factory?” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/135 "2012-10-12T00:58:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Drones are little, if at all, different from actual bombings with live human pilots. Even now, bombers use complicated electronics to find a target and guide the bomb in. Having the pilot sitting in a couch a few hundred miles away doesn’t change the equation for me at all. > > In point of fact, I’m generally baffled that drones have become some sort of scare word. A drone is a bomber whose pilot isn’t physically located inside of it. > That causes no problems for me. And they get MUCH better gas mileage, which is good because, you know… global warming. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t, nor do I support the “War on Terror” in the first place. It’s mostly about harassing innocent people, torture, excusing conquest, and flailing around killing people at near random. > > As for drones? Drones have become popular because they allow killing without direct risk. Americans love killing, pretty much for its own sake, as long as they can do it without risking getting hurt. They don’t really care if it actually accomplishes anything. Almost all bombing conducted (by the greatest military power the world has ever known) involves very little risk. > [@Marley23](#): > > What’s the alternative? War, which causes more of the same damage? “Slaughtering innocents” isn’t the goal, it’s an unintended consequence of violence. To be fair, we spent almost a trillion dollars in direct and deferred costs in Afghanistan. The GDP of Afghanistan is something like $30 Billion dollars/year. Thats less than the interest payment that a trillion dollars would yield. We could have turned Afghanistan into a club med for that kind of money. I never had a problem with invading Afghanistan, I have a problem with using a $300,000 missile to blow up three pup tents in the middle of the desert. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/136 "2012-10-12T01:34:24Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > For at least some subset of crazy people, some of the reason we call 'em crazy in the first place is for showing reckless, impulsive behavior. What makes you classify Muhammad Atta as “crazy”? Do you consider Abu Nidal and Leila Khaled “crazy”? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/137 "2012-10-12T02:39:42Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If all they were doing was saying bad things about us, we wouldn’t be there. We are getting nothing from that stinky hell hole. > > Unfortunately for the terrorists and the countries that house them they sometimes do more than say bad things. They have been identified and placed upon a pedestal of their own making, one in which we shall knock them off (sometimes by drone attack, sometimes 50 cal rifles, and sometimes by numerous other methods) > > Unfortunately for the innocent ones that cannot change the way they are being used shields, they are sometimes cannon fodder. Thus is the way of things. > > You’ll never find a moral justification for “collateral damage”, ever. But it happens in war. I’m not sure I am willing to grant a police action against terrorists the moral equivalent of war. Frankly you sound like a character from 1984. You know, “We have always been at war with Eastasia.” Only you are saying “We have always been at war with the terrorists.” It’s the exact same mindframe. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/138 "2012-10-12T02:42:31Z")
It’s in no way similar except they’re both made up of words. Invoking Orwell is only meaningful if it’s in some way on point. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/139 "2012-10-12T03:06:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not sure I am willing to grant a police action against terrorists the moral equivalent of war. What constitutes “a war” and what constitutes “a police action” is fairly arbitrary and, as the saying goes, is in the eye of the beholder. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/140 "2012-10-12T03:08:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What constitutes “a war” and what constitutes “a police action” is fairly arbitrary and, as the saying goes, **is in the eye of the beholder**. That’s what bin Laden said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=8)