# Americans - how do you morally justify drone strikes in the "War on Terror"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440 "2012-10-11T18:05:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/141 "2012-10-12T03:11:33Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Why? The fault belongs with the terrorists that hide among them (assuming the drone strike is justifiable). You don’t believe the innocent who are killed in drone strikes have any right to complain? Are you trying to set a new standard for arrogance, or what? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/142 "2012-10-12T03:14:52Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You don’t believe the innocent who are killed in drone strikes have any right to complain? Are you trying to set a new standard for arrogance, or what? They can complain about the terrorists who brought misery upon them. ETA: And I said nothing about victims not complaining. I pointed out who was at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/143 "2012-10-12T03:36:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s what bin Laden said. He was correct. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/144 "2012-10-12T03:45:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They can complain about the terrorists who brought misery upon them. > > ETA: And I said nothing about victims not complaining. I pointed out who was at fault. It was our missiles that blew 'em up. Or would you deny that? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/145 "2012-10-12T03:51:24Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > It was our missiles that blew 'em up. Or would you deny that? What does that have to do with it. It was our airplanes that hit the Twin Towers, so should we blame ourselves? The terrorists act like rabid dogs and hide among civilians. They also kill those same civilians. Should we sit back and let them kill us and their own countrymen indiscriminately and do nothing? You are even arguing the issue of justification. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/146 "2012-10-12T03:53:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s in no way similar except they’re both made up of words. Invoking Orwell is only meaningful if it’s in some way on point. I beg to differ. The war on Terror is the same kind of amorphous, all consuming war that the wars in 1984 were, used to justify brutal acts against the enemy and restrictions on freedom just as they were. It’s about as exact an analog as you could ask for. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/147 "2012-10-12T06:34:52Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The terrorists act like rabid dogs and hide among civilians. :rolleyes: Let’s not be ridiculous. Most of these “terrorists” live among civilians because they are civilians for most purposes (and that’s ignoring the victims who are just plain old civilians). They aren’t Cobra, they don’t have a secret volcano base they can go to even if they wanted to. And no, it isn’t reasonable of us to get all morally superior about their refusal to all gather on a big red X so we can drop a bomb on them all at once. And no, I doubt that they are using the populace for human shields, because they know quite well we care nothing about killing innocent bystanders. And we are acting at least as rabid as the “terrorists”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/148 "2012-10-12T06:50:38Z")
Who cares about moral superiority? They attacked us, they gotta die. They could be the Care Bears, instead of people who think teddy bears and democracy are Satanic, and they’d still have to die. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/149 "2012-10-12T07:48:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Who cares about moral superiority? They attacked us, they gotta die. They could be the Care Bears, instead of people who think teddy bears and democracy are Satanic, and they’d still have to die. First, if we are in the moral wrong in a conflict then _we deserve to lose_. Because in that case _we are the bad guys_. You know, being immoral and all. And if morality doesn’t matter, then why should I _care_ if they attacked “us”, as long as they didn’t attack _me_, personally? And second, we aren’t attacking most of the people we are attacking because “they attacked us”. We’ve just been using that as an excuse for what amounts to a new Christian Crusade against brown people and Muslims in general. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/150 "2012-10-12T08:02:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > First, if we are in the moral wrong in a conflict then _we deserve to lose_. Because in that case _we are the bad guys_. You know, being immoral and all. And if morality doesn’t matter, then why should I _care_ if they attacked “us”, as long as they didn’t attack _me_, personally? We are not morally wrong in the conflict for the simple reason that we were attacked by a group that had declared war on us despite us never attacking them. We never did anything to bin Laden or his followers. > [@](#): > > And second, we aren’t attacking most of the people we are attacking because “they attacked us”. We’ve just been using that as an excuse for what amounts to a new Christian Crusade against brown people and Muslims in general. The war has been limited to attacking Al Qaeda, except for the Iraq war, which as far as it relates to the war on terror, was an attempt to implant a democracy into the Arab world. There is no Christian Crusade against the Muslim world as of yet. That may be the end result, but we’re not anywhere near that now. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/151 "2012-10-12T08:09:29Z")
This entire post shows you don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about. First, you just spouted a convenient comment about Republicans and Democrats. You certainly don’t have any proof that what you assert is the reason those two groups are continuing attacks against terrorist targets. Next, your comment about American military officers is more in line with fictional (aka Rambo) movies than it is with how the United States military is actually run. Maybe you missed this in civics class, but that is not the way the US runs its military. Also your comment about the military officer’s mindset is simply fantasy. And then you’re off into CT territory with the trite expression “military-industrial complex.” :rolleyes: I’m a bit cynical about how my fellow Americans see others, especially how they see Muslims of late; however, I do not believe for a moment that the military itself nor the general voting public wishes to see every Muslim killed, and certainly not by wishing for daily drone attacks. You did manage to hit on one valid point. There is too much to lose. The drone strikes are not targeting innocents. They are targeting terrorists. And, yes, those terrorists do not intend to just go on vacation if the US and its allies cease attacking said terrorists. Your last so-called point is simply hand-waving. It obviously will take more than negating the heads of terrorist groups to neutralize those groups, to make them completely ineffective. It will take destroying those groups to do that. > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Look at what fuels the ‘War on Terror’ in general, and drone strikes in particular. Who are the major players supporting it? > > - Politicians. Republican ones who want to blow up shit to look strong, and Democrat ones who don’t want to look weak. > > - Military officers. I don’t think this can be stressed enough: much of the decision-making about whether to continue the WoT, and how to prosecute it, are made my career military men. It is not in their mindset to scale BACK a war! I’m not labelling them bloodthirsty killer, and I’m sure that most would profess that they prefer there be no war in the first place. But they have spend years and decades studying war, learning about war, and thinking about war. It’s what they, like it or not, are programmed to do. That aside, I can’t help but think that the Colonel who publicly says “Ya know guys, this is dumb. Let’s pull out now. Drone strikes? Bad idea.” will probably see a promotion. No promotion for an officer means you’re out of the military before long. > > - The military-industrial complex is real. From domestic ‘homeland security’ to drones, there are companies pushing their products, and jobs that rely on those products. Those companies contribute to political campaigns. So in more ways than one, drone strikes buy votes. > > - Voters, mainly conservative/Republican ones, who want daily drone strikes until every Muslim who has something bad to say about the US is dead. > > Unfortunately, drone strikes will probaby not stop soon. There’s too much to lose, and I’m not talking about risking more terror attacks. > > What happened to the reports that the big terrorist groups were ‘beaheaded’? We got Bin Laden, and word is that the was pretty much alredy ineffective. You might say ‘But we’re still killing the heads of terrorist organizations!’ Well sure we are. As long as there are groups that are acting counter to the interests of the US, or voicing their displeasure using Islam, those groups are going to have leaders. Hence, there will ALWAYS be drone targets. > > So, to me collateral damage from taking out the 24th string terrorist quaterbacks is not morally justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/152 "2012-10-12T13:02:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The war has been limited to attacking Al Qaeda, except for the Iraq war, which as far as it relates to the war on terror, was an attempt to implant a democracy into the Arab world. It was an attempt to implant some oil in the Western world. It was a needless war, a useless war, it’s excuse was the existence of weapons of mass destruction that Bush and his cabal had little or no evidence for the existence of (which is why he used the Nigerian yellowcake hoax in his State of the Union address even though Joe Wilson had told his Administration … at THEIR request … that the yellowcake thing was a hoax). Bush and his cabal of advisors are war criminals, and you are one of their enablers. They belong in the Hague World Court along with their fellows like Milosovitch. And you are known by the company you keep. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/153 "2012-10-12T14:11:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > This entire post shows you don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about. > . It does no such thing. The fact that you disagree doesn’t mean, unfortunately for you, that I haven’t a clue. > [@Monty](#): > > First, you just spouted a convenient comment about Republicans and Democrats. You certainly don’t have any proof that what you assert is the reason those two groups are continuing attacks against terrorist targets. It’s perfectly analagous to the ‘War on Crime’. Republicans are hard on crime because they hate criminals. Democrats are hard on crime because they can’t be seen as looking soft on crime, for the sake of votes. > [@Monty](#): > > Next, your comment about American military officers is more in line with fictional (aka Rambo) movies than it is with how the United States military is actually run. Maybe you missed this in civics class, but that is not the way the US runs its military. Also your comment about the military officer’s mindset is simply fantasy. Civics class notwithstanding, I was _in_ the military. I’m not talking about how the US runs its military, I’m talking about the people that run the military. You really think that miliary officers don’t think like that? How many have you known? > [@Monty](#): > > And then you’re off into CT territory with the trite expression “military-industrial complex.” :rolleyes: Except that despite being trite, it exists. There is an enormous industry based upon nothing more than homeland security and the WoT. > [@Monty](#): > > Your last so-called point is simply hand-waving. It obviously will take more than negating the heads of terrorist groups to neutralize those groups, to make them completely ineffective. It will take destroying those groups to do that. The groups will always exist. There will always be somebody who is willing to call themselves AQ. Hence, a never-ending conflict which is producing rapidly dimished returns. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/154 "2012-10-12T14:16:06Z")
How many American military officers have I personally known? More than a few hundred. Three of them happen to be in my immediate family. So you were in the military? Same here. So, your stance that you know what you’re talking about doesn’t because you were in the military doesn’t seem to hold all that much water, now, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/155 "2012-10-12T14:22:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > How many American military officers have I personnaly known? More than a few hundred. Three of them happen to be in my immediate family. So you were in the military? Same here. So, your stance that you know what you’re talking about doesn’t because you were in the military doesn’t seem to hold all that much water, now, does it? It counters the point that you seem to think that everything I need to know about the military, I should have learned in Civics class. So, in your experience with a few-hundred-and-three military officers, would you please explain how _they_ view the WoT, and how it siginificantly differs from my post. And if there are instances where their views are counter to our currently strategy, how comfortable would they be, and what direction would their career path take if they voiced their opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/156 "2012-10-12T14:35:17Z")
Their view doesn’t include the modern world being “the military-industrial complex.” They also do not intend nor do they advocate for killing all Muslims on the planet. Over the years they–and I–have been in the military, none of us was cashiered for voicing opinions that most certainly are the opposite of your assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/157 "2012-10-12T14:43:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Their view doesn’t include the modern world being “the military-industrial complex.” They also do not intend nor do they advocate for killing all Muslims on the planet. Over the years they–and I–have been in the military, none of us was cashiered for voicing opinions that most certainly are the opposite of your assertions. Specifically, how does this differ from reality, as you see it: > [@](#): > > - Military officers. I don’t think this can be stressed enough: much of the decision-making about whether to continue the WoT, and how to prosecute it, are made my career military men. It is not in their mindset to scale BACK a war! I’m not labelling them bloodthirsty killer, and I’m sure that most would profess that they prefer there be no war in the first place. But they have spend years and decades studying war, learning about war, and thinking about war. It’s what they, like it or not, are programmed to do. That aside, I can’t help but think that the Colonel who publicly says “Ya know guys, this is dumb. Let’s pull out now. Drone strikes? Bad idea.” will probably see a promotion. No promotion for an officer means you’re out of the military before long. Edit: Just noticed that I left out a ‘not’ in the next-to-last line when I wrote this. It should read “That aside, I can’t help but think that the Colonel who publicly says “Ya know guys, this is dumb. Let’s pull out now. Drone strikes? Bad idea.” will probably **NOT** see a promotion.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/158 "2012-10-12T14:48:13Z")
Okay, now you’re full on into delusional. I just explained to you how reality differs from your nonsensical posts. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/159 "2012-10-12T15:08:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Okay, now you’re full on into delusional. This is more appropriate for the Pit than GD. Don’t call other posters delusional. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440/160 "2012-10-12T17:29:10Z")
The justification is that since 9/11, terrorists are now a military rather than a law enforcement problem. This is the origin of the phrase, “War on Terror.” In Afghanistan, we are fighting a war in a literal sense. We use airstrikes against enemy targets, the same as we would on any other battlefield. They are used outside of Afghanistan because the war does not stop at the border and host nations are unwilling or unable to kill/capture the target through other means. You can argue that this is cowardly, immoral, unethical, or counterproductive all you like. That is your right. However, from a legal/moral standpoint they are not different from any other form of military attack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-do-you-morally-justify-drone-strikes-in-the-war-on-terror/637440.md?page=9)