As is the killing of non-combatants, including children. (I haven’t had time to go through all 182 pages of Hamlet’s cite, but from what I’ve seen of his posting over the last several years, he’s fairly cautious when throwing around inflammatory data, and based on what he said in the other thread):
“If these stats are to be believed, the drone attacks are better at killing children (about 5% of the victims), than we are high level targets.”
Har de har har. It’s all pretty fucking funny, isn’t it? That is, unless you’re the one who’s on the receiving end of these strikes, deserved or not.
I was twelve years old 30 years ago. The discussion of cowardice is a side-issue, but again, are you really going to argue that the dude in a base in Boulder has the same courage as the guy who puts his life literally on the line for his (abhorrent) cause?
So in other words, you support this state of affairs extending indefinitely?
Not where I was heading. My point is that the fact that we can continue the WoT for, really, zero cost means that it’s artifically prolonged and extremely subject to mission creep.
More false equivalence. This country is doing everything it can to prevent Americans from killing Pakistanis when not authorized to do so. The Pakistani government is complicit in the killing of Americans by terrorists.
Well, I actually do think only defensive acts are justified. But the 1938 example of Chamberlain folding doesn’t detract from this - it shows that, if unified, in certain circumstances, Great Powers can prevent war from happening (it should be noted that Beck and his colleagues were ready to move, if Chamberlain hadn’t fucked everything up.)
I don’t think it’s funny either. I do think that complaining about specific acts of war because they’re “cowardly” or “arrogant” is ridiculous and comparing terrorist attacks to military drone strikes as “hypocritical” is absurd. And I think that making an unfavorable comparison of the U.S. to Hitler and Bin Laden (based on botched history) is repulsive. Or put it this way: let’s pretend you’re right about this whole cowardice thing. Who gives a good damn?
I don’t recall bringing it up in the first place (because I didn’t).
I kinda think this country isn’t do “everything”. Because if they were, in fact, doing “everything”, they wouldn’t be dropping bombs on children. You can argue “they’re trying their best” not to kill innocents, or, if you want to be more truthful “they’re telling us that they’re trying their best, but won’t actually let anyone confirm that”. But “everything”? Nope, not even close.
And, to be honest, I’m not sure our country has a whole lot of credibility to the people in Pakistan, whose perception doesn’t quite line up with yours. Which was kinda my point using your quote, but pretending it was said by a Pakistani rather than an American.
I really, really want to believe my government is doing a great job of minimizing civilian casualties. I’m just not sure they are.
Depends. If the carpet bombing would have killed Bin Laden thus avoiding the 9/11 attacks, and would have killed one innocent, yes. If the bombing would have killed one 90 year old terrorist who might kill one person and the carpet bombing would kill 1,000 no.
That was easy. It’s the stuff in the middle that’s hard.
More false equivalence. This country is doing everything it can to prevent Americans from killing Pakistanis when not authorized to do so. The Pakistani government is complicit in the killing of Americans by terrorists. We are not they. I fail to see how people cannot see the distinction. I don’t intend justify all American actions or the beliefs and intents of all Americans, but I believe the vast majority of Americans would support an end to the violence and be willing to guarantee it if we were free from assault by the terrorist nations like Pakistan harbor. They clearly do not feel that way, and Pakistan has a clear record of acting in bad faith in that regard.
OTOH I do understand how many people in the world would feel that way about Americans. We have done some horrific things. Personally I’d like to see George Bush and his collaborators tried for war crimes if there was a reasonable body to do so. But that would mostly be for torture and the deaths of Iraqis by conventional bombs, and doesn’t really bear on the question of drone strikes.
It is entirely possible that any or all of our drone strikes were justifiable. It is not possible that the terrorist attacks against us and others are justifiable, nor are other acts committed by the US and probably some of the drone strikes as well.
I don’t have enough information to address any particular drone strike or all of them either, but I can address the policy and the possibility of justification for them, and there is no such possible justification for the terrorists that we should be aiming at.
Where did I refer to Pakistan as an ally? Or do you mean as an ally of our enemies, which they are.
And I think we should declare war on Pakistan, but only at the right moment. I strongly expect we will have to destroy their nuclear capability some day.
Fully aware - and I was surprised it took so long for Middle Eastern terrorist group to hit the US. I wrote about the possibilities back in the '80s during the first Intifada.
Now, in response to 9/11 we changed our security, and then we started killing everyone remotely responsible for being involved. Welcome to the big leagues, and don’t bitch when my drone blows up your house. If you don’t want to be targeted, don’t give aid and comfort to my enemies.
That is how war works. If you attack someone, they will attack back. You don’t get complain about how the other side has better guns or missiles. If you didn’t want to face the US military industrial complex - you shouldn’t have been part of the group that hijacked a pair of airliners.
Except the “you” aren’t always terrorists. They’re farmers, children, grandparents, moms, doctors, and others. Those people, the innocents, are the ones who certainly get to complain when they are blown to pieces by an American drone.
The terrorists who flew planes into the WTC seem pretty cowardly to me. They believed that by killing innocent people they would be secured a spot in paradise as “martyrs.”