# Americans: How has your life been affected by the Patriot Act? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798 "2010-06-28T16:31:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/21 "2010-06-28T23:50:44Z")
It’s impossible to tell how we’ve been affected by the Patriot Act because it has enabled the government to violate our rights in secret. We have to hope that government employees, contractors, and private enterprises stand up for our rights. Some have posited that the Eliot Spitzer case was uncovered through the use of Patriot Act related surveillance. Not giving Spitzer a pass in any way, but the most serious abuse could be interference with the electoral process in the manner Nixon attempted. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/22 "2010-06-29T01:23:15Z")
Well, offhand I would say that the Denver Water Authority closing down one of the three main roads in Summit County was a bit of a pain. The DWA did not even tell the County Sheriff or Fire Departments. They did it in the dark of night. That bothers me. It was closed for a few months. It’s still closed at night. Can’t staff it I guess. The DWA heard a rumor (so they say), and closed the road with zero consideration to the thousands of people that use it. And may I say again. They did not even tell Emergency services. Nothing, no information was ever given for the closure. That’s the power that they were given by the PA. That bothers me. In the interest of ‘Safety’ they closed the road that is used by all EMS in this county without even giving them a heads up. That Denver Water could and did do this without even giving our LEOs or EMS responders any type of forewarning shows just how powerful the Patriot Act is. That bothers me. They let cars over it now, unless you are towing ANY type of trailer. This is a HUGE earthen dam. Engineering studies show that a semi full of explosives might weaken it. Maybe. So, I guess better safe than sorry. But all they had to do is restrict really big trucks. Now they do have active barriers. And a guy on each end with a button in his hand to deploy the barriers. The only thing that they have stopped is some poor person in a mini-van that the barrier tripped on by mistake. It’s a joke. And cost millions of dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/23 "2010-06-29T01:33:41Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > As a non-american myself I am curious how this act has affected life for Americans? (If it indeed has at all) > > Any noticeable difference (I guess Im looking for in practice rather than in theory or symbolically) ? My complaints mainly center around the airports. However, it has been frightening watching Orwell’s 1984 come to life. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/24 "2010-06-29T02:18:34Z")
Seeking opinions is best done in the In My Humble Opinion forum, hence this thread is moving from Great Debates to that forum. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/25 "2010-06-29T03:43:14Z")
[QUOTE=Nars Glinley] I have to audit our Credit Union’s procedures to make certain that they are following both the Bank Secrecy Act and the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Jack Batty] As a data-analyst at a bank, it has affected me because of all the anti-money-laundering laws put into place. While this no doubt has saved the country/company some sheckels and maybe, possibly, coulda, sorta, thwarted some terrorist attacks … we in the data game don’t appreciate lag, damn it. [/QUOTE] Another back-office bank guy here. I’m WAYYYY back-office, but every year, I have to go through USA-PATRIOT, BSA and AML certification, despite the triviality that I don’t have any contact with bank customers or their money. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/26 "2010-06-29T04:14:56Z")
Not affected me one bit, but then I don’t live in America. Still, on our last trip there, in 2005, Immigration was courteous and efficient to the Thai wife. No problems. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/27 "2010-06-29T04:40:13Z")
Well I’m alive, and so is my family and so are my friends. It’s impossible to know what would have happened if we didn’t fight back against the jihadists. It’s kind of like the drop in highway fatalities. Thousands of people are alive today who wouldn’t be if safety improvements hadn’t been made. Am I one of them? I don’t know. Are you? ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/28 "2010-06-29T05:39:54Z")
Not at all that I am aware of. Not counting the low-level irritation whenever I think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/29 "2010-06-29T05:52:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Well I’m alive, and so is my family and so are my friends. It’s impossible to know what would have happened if we didn’t fight back against the jihadists. It’s kind of like the drop in highway fatalities. Thousands of people are alive today who wouldn’t be if safety improvements hadn’t been made. Am I one of them? I don’t know. Are you? But I was alive before the Patriot Act so I’m not seeing that as an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/30 "2010-06-29T06:12:25Z")
It was a typical kneejerk political reaction: it accomplished a little good, most of it was meaningless and it has some really bad results. The good: streamlining of the intelligence services. The bad: airline travel in the USA is a fucking nightmare now. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/31 "2010-06-29T09:28:55Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > Another back-office bank guy here. I’m WAYYYY back-office, but every year, I have to go through USA-PATRIOT, BSA and AML certification, despite the triviality that I don’t have any contact with bank customers or their money. When I worked in the legal department of a large financial institution, I got occasional sternly worded, automated warnings that I hadn’t participated in money laundering training, and if I didn’t get my butt in gear and sign up, Actions Would Be Taken. I never could figure out who I needed to talk to in order to explain that the only funds I had access to were my own checking account, and the ability to request checks for immigration filing fees (each one of which required managerial approval), which were payable to the Department of Homeland Security, and if either of those was an issue, perhaps the bank had bigger problems than my not having wasted half a day in some completely useless training. I work in immigration law; the Patriot Act (and a lot of the other wacko legislation that has been passed on “national security” grounds since 9/11) has made life for a fair number of my clients, and by extension my life, a huge pain in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/32 "2010-06-29T13:58:07Z")
Oh yeah - the financial requirements. My wife handles finances for a couple of non-profit recreational organizations, and every year there are new hoops for them to jump through. As is so often the case, in order to cover all likely suspect organizations, they cast a net large enough to encompas - and inconvenience - everyone. Kinda related, not something diectly caused by the PA, but we have encountered private entities who cite the PA as justification for their intrusive practices. For example, a car dealer said the PA required that thy run a credit check on my wife before accepting her personal check. Complete BS, of course. But just an indication of the mindset the PA encourages. Heard a speech by an ACLU guy a couple of years ago, and he said that even if all info collecting were stopped immediately, it would take years to try to track down who had collected what info, what purposes it was used for, who it was shared with, how it was stored, and whether there were plans for disposal. All of which is intentionally made difficult to track by the PA. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/33 "2010-06-29T14:06:11Z")
Also, if your mailing address is a PO Box, it’s much more difficult to get a Credit Card. I finally gave up with one company. They just did not understand that I do not get mail delivery. I think this is mostly due to the Patriot act and the money laundering thing. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/34 "2010-06-29T14:08:48Z")
The “Patriot” Act has made me a bit more cynical, in general. ---
**Author:** ![Dolukhanova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c68b51/32.png) [@Dolukhanova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dolukhanova)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/35 "2010-06-29T14:15:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s impossible to tell how we’ve been affected by the Patriot Act because it has enabled the government to violate our rights in secret. We have to hope that government employees, contractors, and private enterprises stand up for our rights. > Some have posited that the Eliot Spitzer case was uncovered through the use of Patriot Act related surveillance. Not giving Spitzer a pass in any way, but the most serious abuse could be interference with the electoral process in the manner Nixon attempted. Could you explain how the Patriot Act has enabled the government to violate your rights in secret? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/36 "2010-06-29T14:33:14Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > It was a typical kneejerk political reaction: it accomplished a little good, most of it was meaningless and it has some really bad results. The good: streamlining of the intelligence services. The bad: airline travel in the USA is a fucking nightmare now. I… agree with **Clothahump**. :eek: [QUOTE=Dolukhanova] Could you explain how the Patriot Act has enabled the government to violate your rights in secret? [/QUOTE] > **[Title II of the Patriot Act | American Bar Association](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act,_Title_II#American_Bar_Association)** > > The ABA passed resolutions that asked the U.S. government "to conduct a thorough review of the implementation of the powers granted to the Executive Branch under the \[USA PATRIOT\] Act before considering legislation that would extend or further expand such powers ...." and "to conduct regular and timely oversight including public hearings ... to ensure that government investigations undertaken pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ... do not violate the First, Fourth, and Fifth Ame... > [@](#): > > [The ACLU] believe the Act unconstitutionally amends the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure to allow the government to conduct searches without notifying the subjects, at least until long after the search has been executed. > > …that under the Patriot Act, the FBI can secretly conduct a physical search or wiretap on U.S. citizens to obtain evidence of crime without proving probable cause, as the Fourth Amendment explicitly requires. Of course, nobody can fully explain it, because we _don’t know_ how extensively the government is violating our rights in secret. You know, because it’s a secret. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/37 "2010-06-29T15:02:44Z")
I taught at an American institution overseas, and contributed to TIAA-CREF, when the Patriot Act was passed. Eventually, TIAA-CREF told us that they were dropping us–they would no longer accept contributions from Americans living overseas because it was too much of a hassle to comply with all the regulatory bullshit that was imposed on international flow of money after 9/11. So our university had to solicit offers from a couple of other firms (Fidelity, Vanguard, etc.) to replace them. So it was a lot of expense and hassle for someone. Other stuff–who knows? I don’t have anything to compare it to. I know that dealing with DHS and its various subsidiaries (like US Citizenship and Immigration Services) has always been agonizingly painful, but maybe it was always that way, even before the Patriot Act. I know that when we were evacuated from Lebanon in 2006, they refused to give our daughter (whom we had adopted through the Lebanese courts, and whom we were in the process of getting US citizenship for) a visa to enter the US, even though she had a valid Lebanese passport. After much suffering (and the intervention of a congresscritter) they finally consented to give her a humanitarian parole, meaning she (and by extension I) couldn’t leave the US until her citizenship application was complete (however many months that took), meaning I couldn’t go back to my job, and endured a period of enforced unemployment. Would it have been different without the Patriot Act? Who knows? Maybe not. But there didn’t seem to be a valid reason not to give a visa to a 2-year old girl, except if there was just a climate of excessive stringency. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/38 "2010-06-29T15:32:53Z")
The DHS was created just over a year after the passage of the Patriot Act, so nobody had ever dealt with it before the Patriot Act (although most of its subsidiaries already existed under different names and different Cabinet departments). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/39 "2010-06-30T07:14:31Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The good: streamlining of the intelligence services. The bad: airline travel in the USA is a fucking nightmare now. The Patriot Act didn’t do either of those things. The streamlining of the intelligence services was due to the Homeland Security Act, and fucking up airline travel was the job of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798/40 "2010-06-30T07:21:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The DHS was created just over a year after the passage of the Patriot Act, so nobody had ever dealt with it before the Patriot Act (although most of its subsidiaries already existed under different names and different Cabinet departments). Right; what I meant (but stated badly) was maybe dealing with whatever analog agencies existed before DHS was just as bad. We had to deal with US Citizenship and Immigration Services; before 2003, we would have had to deal with the INS. Would that have been more, less, or equally painful? There really is no way for us to know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-how-has-your-life-been-affected-by-the-patriot-act/544798.md?page=3)