# Americans: Please explain "mail fraud" to a Limey
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 4, 2002, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344 "2002-06-04T17:58:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/1 "2002-06-04T17:58:17Z")
I am reading an American novel (The Cold Six Thousand by James Ellroy - and jolly good it is too).
In this book many of the bad boys are involved in “mail fraud” which is obviously a crime. However I have no idea what this entails (it seems to have something to do with sending racist literature through the post). I have come across this crime in other novels and am still baffled.
I don’t think there’s an equivelent English crime (although it is illegal to send pooh throgh the post)
I have trried google to find out but that just confused me more.
So please help out. What is mail fraud and would you got to jail for it?
---
### Author:  [@KXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KXL)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/2 "2002-06-04T18:02:53Z")
It’s any use of the mail (as opposed to me walking up to/breaking into your house, etc.) to commit a crime. If I promise to send you X if you send me $100, and then I don’t once I get your money, that’s mail fraud. It basically allows U.S. postal inspectors (the mail police – and they are tough customers) to get involved since your local police may not have jurisdiction to go after a criminal in another state.
---
### Author:  [@Why\_A\_Duck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Why_A_Duck)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/3 "2002-06-04T18:03:42Z")
Basically mail fraud is a giant umbrella crime that signifies that the US mail system was used in the commision of a crime. It’s kinda like tax evasion. When they don’t know what to charge you with, they hit you with mail fraud.
From [here](http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m001.htm):
> [@](#):
>
> MAIL FRAUD - 18 U.S.C. 1341, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to use the United States mails in carrying out a scheme to defraud.
---
### Author:  [@KXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KXL)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/4 "2002-06-04T18:06:02Z")
Likewise, if it is illegal to do something (like sell pornography, or as seems to be the case in your book – distribute racist literature) and you do it through the mail, that’s mail fraud. It’s still illegal even if you and I never meet. It’s a way to make the excuse “It wasn’t me. I didn’t do. It happened through the mail. I wasn’t the one who handed him the item.” null and void.
---
### Author:  [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/5 "2002-06-04T18:13:33Z")
This is slightly off-topic, and I have no cite, but back in the Wild West days, it’s said that the postal inspectors were so bad-ass that on more than one occasion, a general store that had a small postal annex would be burgled, and the proprietor would come in the next morning to find a chalk line drawn around the postal annex with a note saying, “Dear postal inspectors – we didn’t cross this line.”
---
### Author:  [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/6 "2002-06-04T18:46:06Z")
One reason you don’t have it in European countries is that you don’t have the distinction between State and Federal crimes - in the US, each state has their own criminal code, under which fraud would normally be prosecuted, for instance. The act exists so that using the US mail system to commit a fraud becomes a Federal crime, not just a State offense, and is tried by the Federal courts. Several nuances like this exist in the US because of the different levels in the criminal justice systems - for instance, kidnapping becomes a Federal offense if you cross a state boundary - the so-called “Lindbergh Law”. If you keep the victim in state (and don’t MAIL a ransom note), only the state laws apply.
---
### Author:  [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/7 "2002-06-04T18:54:31Z")
Link to [mail fraud](http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/welcome.htm) definition at the USPS website.
Selected quote: “Postal Inspectors investigate any crime in which the U.S. Mail is used to further a scheme, whether it originated in the mail, by telephone or on the Internet. The use of the U.S. Mail is what makes it a mail fraud issue.”
Just calling it “mail fraud” is a little vague, as obviously this term covers a wide variety of crimes. (Side note: I have fun reporting those “send $5 to the people on this list” folks to the US Postal Inspectors - well, the Americans listed, anyway - as that is covered under mail fraud.)
---
### Author:  [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/8 "2002-06-04T18:54:39Z")
BTW: Wire Fraud is the same deal, updated for the telegraph (and later telephony).
---
### Author:  [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/9 "2002-06-04T20:31:47Z")
It’s essentially a way for the Feds to take over what would have been a state crime. The congress might federalize a crime if it were to cumbersome or impossible for a state to do it, such as a fraud committed from Florida on New York residents. They also take over crimes in response to public perception that a crime is serious enough. With wire fraud, mentioned above, if a dope dealer phoned a friend in the next city to sell an eighth of pot, it has become federal, since state lines were crossed. If the dealer is a small fry, the feds won’t get involved, and leave the state to procecute him for basic narcotics offenses. However, if the dealer is a supersized fry, the feds have the ability to prosecute him. That is a much bigger deal.
Even if you call or mail a letter next door in perpetration of a fraud, it still falls under the umbrella of mail or wire fraud, since you used the US mail service, or the telephone lines that _can_ be used across state lines.
In the states, if someone is overreacting about something, you might say to them “Don’t make a federal case out of this.” The saying comes from the (correct) perception that it is a much bigger deal to be in federal court than in state court. The judges and prosecuting attorneys are generally considered to be higher quality than state court, and you are dealing with the FBI, or other federal agency rather than the local police. The same applies in civil trials. The feds run a much tighter ship than the local courts.
---
### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2002, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/10 "2002-06-04T21:39:28Z")
For a while, the federal government made it illegal to send “obscene” things through the mail, and people who did it were often charged with mail fraud related crimes. There is the old legend of the tabloid newspaper (might be a UL) which ran two printings, one distributed to the news-stands with the word “fuck” in it, and one sent through the mail to subscribers which omitted the word. Lots of pornographers were arrested for sending porn through the mail. I imagine the novel you’re reading is based on a similar premise, though this sort of thing doesn’t really happen any more to my knowledge.
---
### Author:  [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/11 "2002-06-05T16:33:19Z")
OK I think I understand:
The man who posted anthrax to people is guilty of: Murder; attempted murder; other laws probably AND mail fraud? Thus making it a federal offence? Is this right?
If so it doesn’t help with my book, because it is set in the mid 60’s with a backdrop of the civil rights movement and the people who are apparently guilty of “mail fraud” are sending racist/white supremecist material through the post. Surely such material was legal at this time so where was the crime in posting it?
yours,
confused of London
---
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2002, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/12 "2002-06-05T16:42:24Z")
Two independent jurisdictions. The U.S. government (the one you usually think of, with Bush and the Congress and all that stuff) can legally only do what the Constitution authorizes – although one can get creative on how the powers authorized in the constitution enable thus-and-so! 🙂 The State governments retain all powers not specifically forbidden them by the Federal or State constitution and not specifically delegated to the Federal government by the Federal constitution.
Since the Federal government can muster quite a lot of stuff, it’s useful to have crimes charged in the Federal courts instead of the state courts where one has a choice. Mail fraud, because committed via a service of the Federal government, is a federal crime.
---
### Author:  [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/13 "2002-06-05T16:44:17Z")
It depends on the content of the hate material… Fer instance, if it was sent with the intent to incite riot or civil unrest, it was a fairly serious crime then _and_ now, no matter if it were racist or not.
---
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/14 "2002-06-05T20:07:21Z")
In the movie version of _The Firm_ (but not in the book, I’m told), Tom Cruise’s character finds a vulnerability of the firm when he discovers that they have been overbilling their clients. The bills were sent through the mail … bingo, mail fraud, a federal crime. Without the mail element, they would have been violation of state fraud law or the bar association’s ethics rules, but not federal law.
---
### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/15 "2002-06-06T01:41:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by owlstretchingtime \*
> \*\*OK I think I understand:
>
> The man who posted anthrax to people is guilty of: Murder; attempted murder; other laws probably AND mail fraud? Thus making it a federal offence? Is this right?\*\*
Not quite. It wouldn’t be mail fraud because there is no fraudulent aspect, but you’re on the right track.
[TITLE 18 , PART I , CHAPTER 83 , Sec. 1716](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1716.html) of the federal Code makes it an offence to mail hazardous material, including germs, and makes it a capital offence to do so if death results:
> [@](#):
>
> **§1716**
>
> ( **a** ) All kinds of poison, and all articles and compositions containing poison, and all poisonous animals, insects, reptiles, and all explosives, inflammable materials, infernal machines, and mechanical, chemical, or other devices or compositions which may ignite or explode, and **all disease germs or scabs,** and all other natural or artificial articles, compositions, or material **which may kill or injure another,** or injure the mails or other property, whether or not sealed as first-class matter, **are nonmailable matter and shall not be conveyed in the mails** or delivered from any post office or station thereof, nor by any officer or employee of the Postal Service.
>
> ( **i** )(2) Whoever is convicted of any crime prohibited by this section, which has resulted in the death of any person, shall be subject also to the death penalty or to imprisonment for life.
In addition, [TITLE 18 , PART I , CHAPTER 51 , Sec. 1114](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1114.html) makes it an offence to kill a federal official, which I assume includes a postal worker:
> [@](#):
>
> Sec. 1114. - Protection of officers and employees of the United States
>
> Whoever kills or attempts to kill any officer or employee of the United States or of any agency in any branch of the United States Government (including any member of the uniformed services) while such officer or employee is engaged in or on account of the performance of official duties, or any person assisting such an officer or employee in the performance of such duties or on account of that assistance, shall be punished -
>
> (1) in the case of murder, as provided under section 1111;
>
> (2) in the case of manslaughter, as provided under section 1112; or
>
> (3) in the case of attempted murder or manslaughter, as provided in section 1113
So, the person who mailed the anthrax is potentially liable for the murders of the recipients of the mail, and also for the postal workers who died, as a result of these provisions.
**But Wait! it gets better! Order now and we’ll throw in state murder charges!**
The individual states also have criminal jurisdiction, so those states who had citizens die as a result of the anthrax could also charge the sender, under their regular murder statutes.
**Not convinced yet? Have we got a deal for you!**
The states could charge the sender even if the sender has already been convicted of federal murder charges, without infringing double jeopardy!
---
### Author:  [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/16 "2002-06-06T03:53:10Z")
It would help to know the context of the racist material. If it is ONLY racist material and the time frame is the mid-60’s, Mr. Ellroy may be taking a few liberties.
A glance at U. S. law enforcement literature in the mid-19th century will turn up a plethora of stories about Postal Officers. They are one of the oldest Federal investigation forces (I believe the U. S. Marshal service is a tad, and only a tad, older).
---
### Author:  [@Wikkit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wikkit)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2002, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/17 "2002-06-06T07:30:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by owlstretchingtime \*
> **I don’t think there’s an equivelent English crime (although it is illegal to send pooh throgh the post)**
And I though Winnie would be popular everywhere…
The other posters seem to have gotten the more serious stuff. Having independant state governments that do their best to not cooperate with each other makes everything more complicated.
---
### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2002, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/18 "2002-06-06T08:06:17Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Doug Bowe \*
> \*\*It would help to know the context of the racist material. If it is ONLY racist material and the time frame is the mid-60’s, Mr. Ellroy may be taking a few liberties.
>
> A glance at U. S. law enforcement literature in the mid-19th century will turn up a plethora of stories about Postal Officers. They are one of the oldest Federal investigation forces (I believe the U. S. Marshal service is a tad, and only a tad, older). \*\*
I would think regardless of the time, it would be difficult, if not impossible to charge anyone with mail fraud for sending racist literature through the US Mail. It’s not illegal in the U.S. to espouse racist views.
The Supreme Court does give the government the right to restrain “fighting words” speech, but that has to be speech that is going to cause imminent trouble.
---
### Author:  [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/19 "2002-06-08T23:44:35Z")
I think I’m getting it…
If I placed an advert saying “send me money and I will make you richer” in the press and people sent me cash, that would be mail fraud?
Where does the internet come into this then? Is it mail fraud to rip someone off over the web?
What happens if someones were to send something that is legal in one state to someone in a state where that something is illegal?
yours
totally baffled of London
---
### Author:  [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)
#### Post date: [June 8, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344/20 "2002-06-08T23:48:18Z")
Presumably a female impersonator is committing male fraud :eek:
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-please-explain-mail-fraud-to-a-limey/112344.md?page=2)