You call it a lack of critical thought, I call it a lack of education of anatomy. I have about 1000 credit hours of Anatomy and Physiology. A good portion of that I believe should’ve been taught in High School. Certain things are not necessary for people to know. Like you don’t need to know that Gluteus Medius attaches to the Greater Trochanter, but you should know what gluteus medius is, where it is and that it attaches to the Femur. You don’t need to know normal joint ranges of motion but you should know a ball and socket joint from a hinge joint. A lot of the basic anatomy I didn’t get until I went to massage therapy school, and to be honest I think that a lot of the education I got at that school should be mandatory for everyone in High School. People should know where the Sciatic Nerve or the Femoral artery is. They should know what words like idiopathic mean, and what parts of anatomy, such as artery and nerve pathways are idiosyncratic. They should know the direction that feces traverses the colon.
What people don’t understand goes beyond critical thinking. It’s a matter of a basic knowledge of anatomy that keeps people from understanding things. Personally, I’d require students to learn about hormone production and the endocrine system. They should understand genetics at least well enough to understand how HIV and other virii work by supplanting sections of code in certain cells in order to change their function in order to allow the virus to propagate.
I did get a lot of this in High School but it was insufficient. So it’s not just ‘critical thinking’. It’s a lack of working KNOWLEDGE.
Exactly. I will indeed see a doctor if I have a serious problem, really do need surgery, or am doing routine stuff like mammos and such. For lesser issues, I don’t have a problem with trying home remedies, herbs, etc., provided that I study them first.
The site linked above includes in its database of death due to herbal therapies this story:
From the links provided in that paragraph, we learn that the death was caused by trauma resulting from a car accident while Berggren was under the influence of an herbal sedative. Berggren apparently chose the herbal sedative as an alternative to prescription sedative. So the drug he was taking a) apparently worked as it was marketed to work and b) was taken improperly (i.e., at a time when he wasn’t supposed to be asleep).
In response to the death, the Canadian government in its wisdom pulled other herbal sedatives *marketed *as sedatives because, presumably, they determined that they are effective enough as to make them dangerous to take while operating a vehicle. Who knew it was dangerous to take a sedative and drive? I’m curious if they would have done the same thing if Berggren had died under the influence of the prescription sleep aid he declined to take. I highly doubt it.
Brown Eyed Girl Well as they say data is not the plural of anecdote, but so far out of the two links we’ve cherry picked both of the dangers described result of the improper usage of them and not to people having problems when using them as they are intended. I wonder how many more of those examples are like that.
Upon further review, I see that the herbal remedies were pulled because they contained a drug that was not declared on its packaging. And that the drug involved is known for drug tolerance and dependence as well as a hang-over effect and other side effects.
It’s not clear, however, from the report as to what amount of the drug was found in Berggren’s system, whether he took it as proscribed, and whether his impairment was the cause of the crash.
Don’t think that because an alternative remedy is “natural” or “has been used for thousands of years” that it necessarily works, isn’t harmful, doesn’t have side effects, or doesn’t interact with other medicines (alternative or otherwise). There are natural poisons like oleander. Mercury was used for thousands of years in Chinese and other traditional medicine. Ephedra, which is now banned in the US, was also used in traditional Chinese medicine. I’m taking a (non-alternative) medicine that has warnings on it that it can interact with grapefruit (really), so a grapefruit-based alternative medicine would not work for me.
Right, all of that is well and good, but there is an anti-critical hysteria involving alternative medicine where alternative medicine is so overly broad that it involves Yoga and Massage Therapy.
It’s important to review the contraindications of medicines that you take for sure.
A pretty major interaction that I’ve heard little about – St. John’s Wort can reduce the effectiveness of oral contraceptives. Friend found this out after she took it for depression resulting from the Pill. Pregnancy soon followed. There were no contraindications on the bottle. But then again, there were no warnings from her doc, either (about the depression or taking St. John’s Wort, which IMHO is pretty popular).
Then why did you bring it up? If it isn’t a legitimate concern, then the only reason you should bring it up is in the context of lack of critical thinking.
Um, doctors? You know, the people we pay to be medical experts?
Yes fear is irrational, but avoiding things you know are bad is not fear. Being afraid of real medicine because you heard about a guy who had a scalpel sewn into him is fear. Avoiding a specific doctor who has had 2 such incidents is critical thinking.
The AMA, CDC, WHO, etc are accepted as authorities because real medicine works. I don’t have faith my doctor is right, I trust my doctor and the centuries of work behind her knowledge & training. People don’t necessarily need to understand medicine, they need critical thinking. Hearing a few anecdotes and making a decision on them is not critical thinking.
‘I feel a little tired’ isn’t a medical condition. If taking a little ginseng when you feel a little tired is a ‘herbal remedy’ then most of the people in my office are experts at herbal remedies, especially the kinds they sell at Starbucks. The problem with ‘a little tired’ is that you can do almost anything and it will go away. It’s just something that happens sometimes, and it usually goes away on it’s own.
Exactly. Just because it has a small effect on the body doesn’t make it a medicine.
The intent and the effect. Are you using the goji berries to cure something, or because you like the taste? Are you smoking pot because you have eye cancer, or because you have too many twinkies and need to do something about them? The problem is when you start medicating without expertise. Taking goji berries to cure something without knowing what they really do or how much you can take or how they should be prepared might be dangerous. Or maybe they do nothing and the fact that you’re not using real medicine is what’s dangerous.
Nope, not even close. Cupping can be called frou frou bullshit because it’s based on frou frou bullshit like chi and making skin release toxins, because it has absolutely no evidence behind it, and because the only thing it seems to do is cause bruises. Picking out one case like that and using it as evidence is like picking up a rock when you’re standing in front of a mountain.
Verifiably usefeul medicine is real medicine. Chiropracticy and massage get lumped into alternative medicine because of all the ridiculous things that get claimed about it. What you’re ranting about is alternative medicine hijacking these things to get some credibility. I’m all for Chiropractic when that’s all it is, it’s real medicine. I’m with you on this, we need to separate these things from the ridiculous claims made about them.
Yeah, but not all massages are medicinal.
Yes that’s true. But as long as you don’t actually use the wrong keywords, these laws don’t apply to you. As long as you put something like ‘Not real medicine, in case of emergency go see a real doctor’ in little tiny print you can say quite a lot and get away with it. Don’t say ‘cure’, say ‘help’, and suddenly you can ‘help’ with cancer and depression and lethargy.
What is a expert in the use of herbal remedies called? Where do they get their education? What certification process is involved? What medical regulations govern their practice?
Your view of it is overly simplistic. I’m not going to get into uncritical binary false dichotomies again. Life isn’t about legitimizing or dismissing people.
Right, trust in an authority that some people don’t trust.
Critical thinking isn’t a God.
Well it’s already been pointed out why some of these organizations are suspect upthread. The authority of these organizations is not godlike and they are prone to being swayed by moneyed interests.
You use a few anecdotes to debunk alternative medicine as evidenced by your cite which shows a completely contextless number of about 400,000 people hurt by alternative medicine worldwide, as opposed to the in context statistic for 195,000 EVERY YEAR in the United States alone. So if we are talking about what is dangerous, more people die from medical malpractice as it regards allopathic medicine than alternative medicine.
Critical thinking would be a good thing all around I should think, rather than these hysterical anecdotal websites cited as sources.
Being tired doesn’t usually go away on its own. The most common way to treat it is to eat or sleep. Second most common is to treat it with over the counter stimulants such as coffee, Coca Cola, Guarana, Ginseng and other such methods.
Ok, but the problem with this study is that it is so overbroad as to include Yoga classes as alternative medicine, so how do we know how many of those billions are people buying Ginseng or Goji for pep? Is Yerba Mate or Valerian root tea considered ‘self-medication’ within the context of the statistics presented in that PDF?
Most people don’t use Goji berries because they like the taste. Though I am sure some people do like the taste. I think it’s ok but am put off by the sulfides they use to cure them myself. I’ve never had fresh ones. I smoke pot to get high.
Right, but that’s beside the point. The example on your website wasn’t an example of cupping hurting someone, it was an example of burning someone with alcohol by accident hurting someone. If you want to be critical you need to address the dangers of the alternative medicine when used AS INTENDED. Cupping in and of itself isn’t very dangerous and it’s fucking phenomenal when used for a massage. I can legally give you a massage using cupping and it is awesome at releasing myofascial adhesions. So you need to be specific. You can’t say, “Cupping has no viable uses.”, because that’s not true, it does, and in the example cited it was being used by a Doctor (the cite claims it was a Doctor anyway) in order to relieve tension, and he spilled alcohol and burned the patient. That’s malpractice.
Right I agree. And my complaints are about the reliability of this study. It’s conclusions are overbroad. It doesn’t tell us anything useful because it’s not granular enough.
No, and you don’t need a Doctor’s permission to get a relaxation massage. If you have a real medical problem that I don’t recognize when giving you a relaxation massage and I somehow make your problem worse, I am liable up to a point, but I am somewhat protected from being sued by a pretty hefty insurance policy. My insurance is very inexpensive because it’s highly unlikely that I’m going to hurt you.
No, it’s not in tiny print. It needs to be in bold print and made quite clearly. The client needs to understand that I am not a Doctor and I am not capable of making a diagnosis. And I am legally able to help with Cancer, if I have a Doctor’s note from the patient. If you come to me and say, “I have Cancer.”, I am not legally allowed to give you a massage unless you bring me a Doctor’s note. For instance if you have had chemo recently I can release the chemo that is stored in the muscles and fatty tissue, thus possibly messing with your chemo dosage by releasing stored chemo from a prior dosage. If you come in telling me you have cancer I cannot touch you without permission from a Doctor, no exceptions. I can lose my license and open myself up to litigation.
No, but you do need to exercise some caution, if you’re considering valerian root tea for that purpose. Certainly a Google search is called for, to make sure it won’t interact with any other medicines you take or make any health conditions worse. Consulting someone whose knowledge about herbal medicines you trust would be a good idea, too. Of course, none of this is a bad idea when you’re prescribed a new medicine by a regular doctor, either. They’re human, and, as such, don’t always catch things like drug interactions.
Don’t assume you can take as much of an herbal remedy as you want, or that “if a little is good, a lot must be better”. That’s just as dangerous with herbal medicines as it is with other medicines.
Most of our armament of ‘real drugs’ have been derived from natural sources. You’d probably laugh if someone told you, “The bark of the Pacific Yew Tree contains a molecule that selectively targets and kills breast carcinomas.” Though, in reality, its true. Its called Taxol. Soy, for example, contains compounds that binds to the estrogen receptor, thereby alleviating menopausal symptoms in some women. Its called genistein and daidzein.
Ginseng increases the amount of luteinizing hormone (LH) secreted from the hypothalamus. Now, if you know that LH stimulates Leydig cells to produce testosterone, anecdotal reports of men claming to be more ‘verile’ has a new light of legitimacy. I could go on with citral found in orange peels, naringin found in grapefruit, epigallocatechin gallate found in green tea, salicylic acid from willow bark, nobelitin found in lemon and other citrus fruits, resveratrol from grapes, or caffeine in coffee beans. There are a host of natural compounds isolated from fruits, vegetables, and bark(!) that have biological activity. We just don’t talk about them.
People will continue to spend money on alternative medicines as long as prescription medication costs continue to explode. If a poor man is struggling with a growing prostate, it’s alot easier to buy saw palmetto than spend a hundred bucks on finasteride.
I don’t think it’s just cost. There are other psychological factors at play, too.
For a problem like impotence, you can’t ignore the embarrassment factor. It’s embarrassing, at least for some of us, to tell a doctor that you have a problem related to sex.
You’d also expect to see alternative medicines for problems that patients consider more serious than doctors do. If doctors don’t provide a remedy for a bothersome condition, or tell patients to just live with it, alternative remedies will spring up.
You’d expect to see alternative medicines for problems where the medical solution is unpalatable, as well. Natural weight-loss products would fit into this category, as would natural hangover remedies. A doctor would tell you to eat or drink less to deal with those problems, and who wants to do that? Much easier and more fun to take an herbal remedy.
And why don’t they trust this authority? Is it because we have hard statistical proof that these organizations do more harm than good?
Um, yes, that’s nice, what does this have to do with anything? Oh, and if you’re trying to suggest that I place empty belief in critical thinking the way a religious person would place empty belief in their god, then I’d like to see a little proof. Suggesting critical thinking is lacking in a situation in which it is demonstrably lacking is not faith.
The only organization that is godlike is god, and that’s solely through believer’s fiat. All that was pointed out was that these organizations are composed of humans and humans are not perfect. Yes there are problem, but even with those problems real medicine is still immeasurably preferable to any alternative.
The website I listed does not debunk alternative medicine, nor have I ever said that it does. It exists to show the consequences of using alternative medicine in place of real medicine. If more people die from real medicine than alternative medicine, then why is it still so popular? Could it be that real medicine shows results?
Yes, and?
Yoga is yet another thing that gets pimped out as something that cure any ill. It looks like this study sought to be all inclusive and has things that have some non-alternative uses.
So bitch to the web site that it has an invalid example. You keep harping on this one thing like it invalidates everything else. Cupping gets used in alternative medicine. People claim it realigns chi and removes toxins from the skin and probably other things. Do you claim these things? Why not? So cupping is yet one more thing that gets hijacked by alternative medicine in an attempt to gain credibility. Just because it does have legitimate uses doesn’t mean everything it’s used for is legitimate.
Sure it is overbroad, but it isn’t useless. All you would need to make it better is to cut out the portions of the techniques covered that are actually real medicine, and keep the alternative medicines in.
So tell me, do you help people align their meridians? Help them work through past trauma? Cuz these people do. Notice the language used on the site. It never says they can cure anything unless it’s actually medical, but there’s a lot of ‘help’. This is one of the first sites that showed up in a quick search. I’ve seen worse. Here’s another good one, with quantum thrown in for good measure. Once again, no ‘I can cure this’ but a lot of suggestion. It doesn’t seem to be that hard to get around these laws.
They don’t trust it because they are overwhelmed by information and possibly have bad experiences with Doctors. There is also the ‘scaremongering’ factor, but arguing for it as a singular cause is not reasonable. You’re talking about critical thinking, but are getting upset when people don’t simply accept an appeal to authority.
No, I am saying you are repeating it like a mantra as though it’s the only relevant part of a complex issue.
Yes, and some people are willing to trust medicine despite it’s flaws and others ar not. The fact that 200,000 people a year die in the US alone due to medical malpractice in hospitals should give one pause before declaring that distrust of the medical establishment is completely baseless and irrational. The fact of the matter is it’s not irrational at all. You do a cost-benefit analysis and decide the benefits are worth it, others do the cost-benefit analysis and decide it’s not worth it.
Actually it’s 100% provable that more people die from using ‘real’ medicine as opposed to alternative medicine. What’s relevant is the proportion that utilize each. It cannot be disputed that in real terms ‘real’ medicine kills more people per year than alternative remedies.
Ok, but my point of view is that is not granular enough to tell us anything meaningful about the useage of CAM.
The point is that the cite you gaves us is significantly lacking in rigor. It’s just not a very good cite. But cupping isn’t hijacked by Chinese Medicine as it’s an ancient Chinese art. It just so happens that it is easily provable that cupping reduces myofascial adhesions, because stretching and heating the fascia reduces myofascial adhesions as does pulling the fascia up off of the muscle.
I agree that this would solve a lot of the problems.
Meridians don’t get out of alignment. They get energy blockages. And yes, I can do Shiatsu, but I don’t claim that it is western medical treatment when I do it.
Yes, people often get emotional after a Shiatsu and can work through past trauma. It’s a very powerful modality, regardless of your belief in it’s efficacy. It’s not a myofascial modality and yet it can be very intense. I won’t of course defend it based on scientific reasoning because there is no adequate explanation that I have heard for it. It definitely feels very different from Swedish Massage.
Well yes and no. You can do anything you want as long as your patient doesn’t sue you or bring you up on charges with the state ethics board.
Even if one accepts the estimates/guesses on this subject, the figures are swayed heavily by the numbers and types of patients treated and the forms of treatment employed. Alt med practitioners do not usually care for elderly patients with multisystem organ failure, treat people with acute strokes or myocardial infarctions or care for victims of severe trauma. Handling the care of critically ill patients involves responsibility on a far different plane from giving someone a “toxin flush” or a homeopathic treatment for asthma.
Apart from getting to deal with much sicker patients, physicians utilize vastly different treatments. These differ from alt med remedies because the mainstream therapies a) are typically much more powerful, b) they work, and c) they are accompanied by side effects that may be more severe.
If you have a deadly infection, the antibiotics you receive may very well save your life. Not taking them is likely to result in your death. The antibiotics could damage your liver and give you life-threatening complications, but the alternative is worse. If you take a homeopathic remedy for your skin rash, it’s unlikely that it will cause you harm. Water (which is essentially what most homeopathic drugs consist of) is pretty innocuous.
So it’s ludicrous to compare outcomes in mainstream and alternative medicine. What usually does not show up in statistics bandied about on the subject is how many people delay effective therapy by using alt med remedies, and how much misery and premature death ensues.
And if you’re going to emphasize Death By Medicine vs. Death By Alternative Medicine, consider this: serious injuries or fatalities secondary to properly (or improperly) applied evidence-based care are regrettable. Serious injuries or fatalities due to unproven and nonsensical woo are absolutely intolerable. If your treatment is worthless, your serious injury/death rate should be zero.
Unfortunately in the case of most such therapies, it’s not.