# Americans: the most generous people in the world. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120 "2011-12-22T21:11:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/61 "2011-12-24T21:18:11Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Suppose for simplicity’s sake that there’s a nation where everyone agrees that a tax-funded homeless shelter program should be implemented; there’s a unanimous referendum. People support the program because they feel that a modern society should have a social safety net. They don’t consider it to be generous or charitable because _it’s just something that decent people do_; refusing to provide shelter for homeless strangers would be akin to refusing to feed one’s own children. > > Now suppose time passes, and support for the program drops a bit. There’s a guy who argues that while it’s a laudable program, he shouldn’t be coerced into paying for it. He’d much rather have a slightly larger portion of his income remain untaxed so that he can personally donate the money to a charity-funded homeless shelter program. > > What’s that guy’s deal? Does he want the prestige that comes along with donating to charity? Does he want people to praise him for being so generous? Does he crave a feeling of power over vulnerable people, knowing that he could withhold his donation if he wanted to? If he were to emigrate to a country with only charity-funded homeless shelters, his donations would indeed earn him some prestige and praise and maybe a feeling of power; he’d look like a big shot for being so generous. However, everyone around him at home believes that helping the homeless is baseline human decency, and questions his motives for wanting to change the status quo; why does he want to be held to a lower standard? Why are you conjuring up so many negative images? The most parsimonious answer is that he simply thinks the government shouldn’t force us to do things that we are perfectly capable of doing ourselves. Re-write your example substituting “feed your children” with “homeless shelter”, and you make the argument that in a country where children are all fed via government action, a person who wanted people to be able to feed their children would be acting like a big shot. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/62 "2011-12-24T21:27:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “it’s my money and I know best what to do with it, not the government”. Problem is, I know myself well enough to know that I’d use a far lower fraction of my income on charity than the amount I pay today in taxes which I others benefit from. Even if I sincerely believe what’s the right thing to do in a society. I am that short-sighted and selfish. By taking a sizable chunk of my - and others’ - income, the government is able to provide a social safety net for people less fortunate than myself, and those people won’t have to rely on rich people’s need to feel superior. Hell, I might even benefit from that safety net myself the day I’m rushed into the ER with a difficult and expensive diagnosis. And my employer will probably have a better chance to survive since even poor bright kids can afford a proper education through public college funding and student loans and contribute to society by getting a job at my place and doing well for my employer. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/63 "2011-12-24T21:31:39Z")
But but… That’s _socialist_! And therefore by definition, _evil_. And Freedom is _good_. Because it is free. And if you are in favor of socialism, you are therefore against freedom. And you are evil. That’s about all you need to know about some folks reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/64 "2011-12-24T22:00:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I guess the concept of freedom is foreign to you. As in “it’s my money and I know best what to do with it, not the government”. I don’t know about that. There’s another thread discussing shoes, and how people are willing to spend upwards of $500 on Ebay for a pair of runners because they have some guy’s name on it. I think “It’s my money and I don’t wanna!” might be more accurate. Not necessarily better, but more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/65 "2011-12-24T22:19:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why are you conjuring up so many negative images? The most parsimonious answer is that he simply thinks the government shouldn’t force us to do things that we are perfectly capable of doing ourselves. I’m gonna have to disagree with you on that. Opinions about the proper role of government, IMO, tend to form to accommodate other attitudes one already holds. They make for much pithier sound bites than unvarnished selfishness. > [@](#): > > Re-write your example substituting “feed your children” with “homeless shelter”, and you make the argument that in a country where children are all fed via government action, a person who wanted people to be able to feed their children would be acting like a big shot. What I was trying to get at is that in our hypothetical country where the homeless always have access to shelter and children never go hungry (neither of which is true of any real country of appreciable size), you can’t say, “Look how generous I am, I take care of the homeless.” any more than you can say, “Look how generous I am, I take care of my children.”. It would also be strange to say, “Look at what a generous country we are, we take care of our homeless.” or, “Look at what a generous country we are, we make sure all of our children are fed.”. It doesn’t matter whether either need is met by charity or social spending; it’s not going above and beyond their minimum standards of human decency. If someone from this country were to meet a foreigner who boasts about how generous he is for donating to homeless shelters, they’d probably smirk. If the foreigner were to insist that he’s more generous than the locals because of these donations, he’d sound a bit silly. He may be going above and beyond his own culture’s baseline of decency, but it’s a relatively low baseline. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/66 "2011-12-24T22:36:21Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Problem is, I know myself well enough to know that I’d use a far lower fraction of my income on charity than the amount I pay today in taxes which I others benefit from. Even if I sincerely believe what’s the right thing to do in a society. I am that short-sighted and selfish. And you need the Big Daddy Government to tell you what to do, you shorted-sighted and selfish child. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/67 "2011-12-24T23:35:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And you need the Big Daddy Government to tell you what to do, you shorted-sighted and selfish child. The thing is, he has the freedom to vote for those who would use his tax dollars to help those less fortunate. Why do you want to take away his freedom? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/68 "2011-12-24T23:50:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Those countries also seem to have ranked low in this group’s survey in 2010. I wonder if it has anything to do with rampant poverty. And which is the cause, and which the effect? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/69 "2011-12-24T23:57:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And you need the Big Daddy Government to tell you what to do, you shorted-sighted and selfish child. Personal insults aren’t allowed in this forum. I’m giving you a warning for this. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/70 "2011-12-25T01:25:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Personal insults aren’t allowed in this forum. I’m giving you a warning for this. “I am that short-sighted and selfish.” - 2square4u ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/71 "2011-12-25T01:44:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Here’s how I can see the survey going: > > Random American: “Why yes, I gave money to a Republican candidate. With this money, he made an ad about how gays in the military have resulted in children being forbidden from praying in schools. I also volunteered with a group who organized to prevent gays from having the same rights as me.” > > Random Foreign guy: “Hmmm… I was pretty busy working to try to get food for my family. The Red Cross was in my village, but I did not volunteer to help them, as I was pretty busy lining up to get uncontaminated water from them. Oh, I did help Fazil, and gave him money to feed his children. And there was old Vasila, we took her in when her husband died. But Fazil is a fourth cousin, and Vasila is related to my second cousin’s aunt, so they’re not strangers.” > > Conclusion: > > Foreigners are selfish, greedy bastards who do not help out others. I think it’s even worse than that. I think the Random American is secretly gay, a self-loathing fundamentalist. So not only does he look to destroy gay rights, he’s a _hypocrite_. On top of that, I suspect he probably molests puppies. The Random Foreign guy is also probably donating body organs to strangers in need–hell, even to strangers _not_ in need, just in case. Additionally, he works at a shelter for molested puppies. And _none_ of this is captured in the results. Yep, I too have _serious_ concerns with this survey. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/72 "2011-12-25T02:38:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “I am that short-sighted and selfish.” - 2square4u Funny. I don’t see any references in his post to needing a “Big Daddy” or to being “a child.” Using another poster’s self-deprecating words against him might be acceptable in some contexts, but couching those words in a way that makes them obviously insulting is clearly over the line. If you have any further comments on your behavior or the Warning, please take them to ATMB and out of this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/73 "2011-12-25T11:04:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The thing is, he has the freedom to vote for those who would use his tax dollars to help those less fortunate. Which, by the way, is exactly what I try to do. I would like to propose an extended metric for a people’s generosity: The fraction of their income used for helping others, including not only direct charity, but also tax dollars going to foreign aid, social services etc. Accomplished not only by how they spend their disposable income, but also by how they vote to get the necessary tax regime to provide help for others. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/74 "2011-12-25T13:25:28Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Which, by the way, is exactly what I try to do. > > I would like to propose an extended metric for a people’s generosity: The fraction of their income used for helping others, including not only direct charity, but also tax dollars going to foreign aid, social services etc. Accomplished not only by how they spend their disposable income, but also by how they vote to get the necessary tax regime to provide help for others. Of course. Because forced charity is the best kind. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/75 "2011-12-25T13:49:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/us-jumps-to-top-of-charity-index/2011/12/20/gIQAzbAe7O\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/us-jumps-to-top-of-charity-index/2011/12/20/gIQAzbAe7O_story.html) > > Americans: the most generous people in the world. In this season of giving, that’s no idle gloat. > > According to a new study, the United States tops a massive global charity survey, rising from fifth place in 2010. > > The “World Giving Index,” based on 150,000 interviews with citizens of 153 nations, ranks the U.S. highest on a scale that weighed monetary donations, volunteer work, and willingness to help out a stranger. > [@](#): > > “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of people in order to be noticed by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So whenever you give to the poor, don’t blow a trumpet before you like the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets so that they will be praised by people. I tell you with certainty, they have their full reward! But when you give to the poor, don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be done in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” Matthew Ch 6, International Standard Version ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/76 "2011-12-25T15:51:11Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Matthew Ch 6, International Standard Version Are you offering up the Christian Bible as an objectively true source to determine appropriate behavior? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/77 "2011-12-25T16:12:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are you offering up the Christian Bible as an objectively true source to determine appropriate behavior? No, I’m saying it’s wrong to thump your chest and boast about how wonderfully generous you are. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/78 "2011-12-25T16:56:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, I’m saying it’s wrong to thump your chest and boast about how wonderfully generous you are. Is it? The only proof you’ve offered is a quote from the Christian Bible. Many of us here are not Christians. And it’s not clear that the OP is boasting. This is a debate. I’ll also note that your Christian Bible tells you not to cast stones. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/79 "2011-12-25T17:11:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > forced charity is the best kind. Forced? My “charitable” tax money are a consequence of my - and others’ - free and voluntary votes for the system we have. Nobody’s forcing me to vote for the system we have. Besides, I too find the “we’re the most generous folks in tha wooorld” OP slightly nauseating. And that even without any biblical references. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120/80 "2011-12-25T18:47:07Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Forced? That’s how taxes are collected - by force. Try not paying them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americans-the-most-generous-people-in-the-world/607120.md?page=5)