There is no commandment like that in the Bible, though.
My mother is a minister at a church in Atlanta. Even before the state went into “lock down” mode, they switched to online services–which they have been doing ever since. The same with my father’s church. We live in an amazing age when people can worship and fellowship with others without having to leave their bedrooms. People have been doing this since the advent of the radio, so it isn’t like we’re talking about something earth-shattering.
These people don’t deserve any respect, sorry. It would be one thing if they were defying CDC recommendations to do something to actually help people other than themselves. But they were defying the recommendations for selfish reasons. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you can only worship or pray in a packed sanctuary. Nowhere in the Bibles does it say you can’t send tithes and offerings through the mail or electronic transfer. The Bible does have something to say about testing the Lord, however.
Indeed. My church is also doing online services, and we’ve realized that now that the technical issues have been resolved, there’s no need for weather cancellations of services, either. We’ll be able to have worship (virtually) together even when the weather makes travel impossible.
Why would you immediately jump on atheists when you hear this?
As everybody has noted, most believers of all faiths and denominations have been sensibly holding distant services. They are the vast majority in this country. Don’t you think it is inevitable that many of them are thinking “I told you so” to these pastors and their loud and stupid defiance? Wouldn’t even a small percentage of believers thinking this way hugely outnumber any percentage of atheists who do?
Rather than protecting believers you are giving us an example of them at their worst.
Oh, BTW, here’s a supply of apostrophes that you can use to make your posts more readable in the future.
I guess I look at it like following God’s will. Many religious people say that God speaks directly to them. If God is telling these preachers to hold services in the church and the preachers really believe it’s God’s voice, then it seems like they should hold services even if it the consequences are grim. Maybe God is telling different preachers different things. Some preachers are told to hold services in the church, others to do it online, others to just to at-home prayer, etc.
Although holding services may not be commanded in the Bible, following God’s orders is often referenced. One example is when God commanded Abraham to offer one of his sons as a sacrifice. Abraham had his son on the alter and was prepared to follow through, but then God’s messenger told him to stop. That story is used to as an example of having unwavering faith in God. If God is telling the preachers to hold services, then it seems like the faithful should follow through even if they (or their children) may die.
I am not religious and I personally don’t think they should be holding services because of the risks. But if God is speaking to religious people and telling them to hold services, it seems like the followers should comply if they truly believe God is real.
I agree with the premise of this story but I’m skeptical about the details, simply because I’m wondering why only one of these cases made the news - especially since that one was heavily reported.
Here’s a better story, it includes the names of some of the other pastors and bishops who died from COVID.
I’m still a little skeptical of the “25-30 pastors” claim. The sole source of that claim seems to be from an academic named Andrea Butler that says she knows of 25-30 church leaders that died from the virus. That number seems high to me, especially in the absence of any details. I’m wondering if maybe she’s using an expanded definition of church leaders that includes deacons- the Church of God in Christ seems to robustly recruit deacons from the men in the their congregations.
Again, I agree with the premise of the story, but exaggerated reporting doesn’t help anyone - the details are bad enough that embellishment isn’t necessary.
This reminds me of the story of the two women in India(?) who claimed that God would prevent them from drowning as they crossed a raging river, and they crossed the river and indeed drowned, thus leading to intense mockery.
There is an immense difference between faith and presumption, and these virus pastors fell for the latter.
Do you have respect for people who can discern their own voice from God’s?
Because I do. I have a whole lot more respect for those people than the slavishly devout. Stupid and crazy people can be amazingly consistent in their stupid and crazy thinking. That’s not an awesome feat deserving of respect. That’s just sad.
I grew up religious. Misplaced respect is a major reason why I’m not anymore.
A church I do a website for, where the main “technical guy” that I was working with has no more knowledge of technology than a squirrel (but tons of heart!), has done a fantastic job getting their services online. And for those who can’t figure it out, the pastor is also doing the service in the parking lot with a PA for parishioners to see/hear from their cars. I can tell you this church has zero budget and a tiny congregation and they’re managing to get along just fine.
Even my little old ma who can’t do things too well has figured out how to organize her ladies’ Bible study group into weekly Facebook video calls. And her (Catholic) church is doing daily masses online, which is great for her because she needs something like that right now with what’s going on in her life, both covid-19 and other.
There are a lot of ways to let people hear The Word and worship together. Anyone flouting the rules just to come off as more powerful or more knowing than the government is really doing the opposite of “protecting one’s flock.” It makes me angry and it makes me sad.
Indeed not. And the bible holds advice against conducting services.
Matthew 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
It’s not just southern Baptist preachers dying. This virus is taking out orthodox rabbis in New York too.
Well, I don’t know the health histories of these specific individuals. But the vast majority of people who have died of COVID-19 have been people who are, in fact, significantly more likely to die, even absent the virus, than the general population.
I grew up in the COGIC church, and my father still attends.
From what I’ve heard, there was a big national COGIC conference in February/early March–before a nation-wide lockdown. People believe that’s where a lot of these church leaders got infected. So it would be wrong to think that all the pastors who have died are ones who were intentionally going against CDC recommendations and lockdown measures.
I don’t think God exists, so if someone says God speaks to them, I think they are wrong because I don’t think there is a God to talk to them in the first place. But if God does exist, then he could be talking to people and telling them to do things that don’t make sense. I think Abraham was crazy since he was going to kill his son because “God” told him to, but religious people don’t necessarily feel that way. Certainly Abraham must have believed it was God talking to him to do something so horrible.
I think there are a lot of crazy people who mistakenly attribute the voices in their head to God, but is that the case for all religious people? Many otherwise seemingly sane people say they talk with God all the time. Everyone from the Pope on down to neighbors and coworkers talk with God and make decisions in their life base on what He tells them. If otherwise normal and sane preachers say that God wants them to hold in-church services, how are we to know whether they are really commanded by God or if they are crazy?
Define “sane”. Someone who is a narcissist is technically sane, but I wouldn’t trust their leadership.
If you don’t believe God exists, who do you think talked to Abraham? If Abraham had killed his son and you were a member of his jury, would you vote that he was guilty by reason of insanity? Because I would.
But that vote wouldn’t come with any respect for him. I would save respect for the guy who heard the same voice but chose to face the consequences of disobeying. That guy has balls. The other guy is a spineless, brainless murdering weirdo who deserves to feel shame for the rest of his life.
I’m with you on that. I think Abraham was crazy and should have his kids taken away. If God told me to do that, I’d tell him no and deal with whatever punishment came my way for disobeying his order. But I think it’s hypocritical for a religious person to say “I believe in God and all His power” and then to say “I’m going to ignore God’s will because I don’t think He means it.” So even though I don’t agree with people going to church during this time, I respect them holding to their religious stance even when it means harm may come to them.
I don’t respect what I consider a foolish choice, but I respect their devotion to religion which is rarely demonstrated by most religious followers. Take the Jehovah’s Witnesses as an example. They believe that it’s against God’s will to take a blood transfusion, so sometimes they die because they don’t accept such treatment. I don’t agree with their choice, but I respect their dedication to their religion. They believe God’s will is X, so they follow X even if it has grave consequences to them. If God is real, then humans should follow His commands. Most religious people are not like that. They believe X as long as it suits their needs and desires. If X is too much trouble, then they come up with some justification not to do it.
A non-religious example is when Socrates willingly drank poison when Athens found him guilty of corrupting the youth. Socrates held his beliefs so firmly that he drank the poison as a demonstration of that. He taught that if you live in a society, you are bound by the rules and justice of that society. If that society condemns you to die, then it would be wrong to avoid that penalty. So even though I don’t agree with him drinking the poison, I admire that he absolutely was firm in his beliefs.
I don’t believe that God talks to people and tells them what to do.
OTOH, if God can’t convince people that he/she/it/they is really the all-powerful and omniscient creator of everything and that you must obey him/her/it/them then why have religion at all?
So you respect people’s stupidity as long as they claim to be stupid for the sake of their religion. Gotcha.
I don’t know if you noticed the tail-end of my last post. These people didn’t make a “foolish” choice. They didn’t just harm themselves. They made a dangerous choice that likely harmed others. I don’t care if someone wants to drink poison to demonstrate their faith. Drink away, my crazy dude. But anyone who wants to impress God so much that they make other people drink poison deserves condemnation. Not respect.
The difference is between putting yourself in danger, and putting others in danger. People should be able to put themselves in as much danger as they can stomach. They shouldn’t be able to put others in danger.
So, guys having sex when they know AIDS is “out there”? That’s entirely their choice. Guys having sex while knowing they are HIV positive? That’s crossing the line. Unless they tell their partner ahead of time and the partner consciously chooses to have sex with an HIV positive person anyway.
That’s why I don’t like the “Darwin award” comments I see about these people breaking quarantine. They can do dangerous things all they want, just don’t subject others to that danger. The problem isn’t that you might die of your own stupidity, the problem is that you will kill others with your stupidity.