# America's "Culture Wars" coming to an end (RW loses) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736 "2009-08-17T16:23:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/21 "2009-08-18T00:19:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As for the OP…I seriously doubt it. All that will happen is the battlefield will shift to something else. See post #13. There’ll always be **a** cultural war, perhaps, but it won’t be the **same** war. The factions, fault-lines and demographics might bear no relationship to those of today. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/22 "2009-08-18T00:26:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See post #13. There’ll always be **a** cultural war, perhaps, but it won’t be the **same** war. The factions, fault-lines and demographics might bear no relationship to those of today. We’ve gone from arguing about whether people having gay sex should be arrested to arguing about whether they should get legally married. It seems that the front lines in this culture war have moved quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/23 "2009-08-18T01:25:08Z")
On the other hand, we’ve gone from believing that all cultures are equally valid, including inner city ones, to arguing over whether the failure of the bulk of black America are cultural or innate. Also the ideas of social construction, postmodernism, and deconstruction are falling out of vogue. Finally, and most strikingly, nobody important will cop to being a Marxist today, whereas 40 and especially 80 years ago that would have been a perfectly respectable thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/24 "2009-08-18T01:30:45Z")
“Culture wars?” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/25 "2009-08-18T01:39:21Z")
I had no idea the Gates issue was critical for the Obama administration, or indeed that it was anything more than a minor racial blip that was going to be forgotten by next month in any case. Heck, Obama could had ignored it or fucked it up incredibly, and I don’t see how it would have mattered. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/26 "2009-08-18T02:00:28Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > On the other hand, we’ve gone from believing that all cultures are equally valid, including inner city ones, to arguing over whether the failure of the bulk of black America are cultural or innate. Also the ideas of social construction, postmodernism, and deconstruction are falling out of vogue. Only among a segment of conservative intellectuals, I would think. As a grad student in rhetoric, I’ve been in countless discussions where alternatives to Post-Everything theory never quite get articulated. It doesn’t seem to be PC walking on eggshells, either, so much as an interest in the intellectual possibilities offered by (especially) the theories of discourse. They’re strongly seductive, especially when you contrast them with movements such as positivism, essentialism, and fundamentalism. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/27 "2009-08-18T03:03:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I had no idea the Gates issue was critical for the Obama administration, or indeed that it was anything more than a minor racial blip that was going to be forgotten by next month in any case. Heck, Obama could had ignored it or fucked it up incredibly, and I don’t see how it would have mattered. That’s exactly all it was. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/28 "2009-08-18T03:08:58Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > Obama’s been president for a couple of months now and I’m disappointed, nay furious, that all of the world’s problems aren’t fixed yet. When we voted for change, we meant like right-now change. > > What a failure of a presidency. > > /s I want perfection. But I’ll settle for progress. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/29 "2009-08-18T04:05:07Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Only among a segment of conservative intellectuals, I would think. As a grad student in rhetoric, I’ve been in countless discussions where alternatives to Post-Everything theory never quite get articulated. It doesn’t seem to be PC walking on eggshells, either, so much as an interest in the intellectual possibilities offered by (especially) the theories of discourse. They’re strongly seductive, especially when you contrast them with movements such as positivism, essentialism, and fundamentalism. I realized that I forgot to link to the post containing [data](http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php) for this claim. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/30 "2009-08-18T14:09:54Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > “Culture wars?” [Yes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war) > [@](#): > > The expression was introduced again by the 1991 publication of _Culture Wars: The Struggle to Define America_ by James Davison Hunter, a sociologist at the University of Virginia. In it, Hunter described what he saw as a dramatic realignment and polarization that had transformed American politics and culture. > > He argued that on an increasing number of “hot-button” defining issues — abortion, gun politics, separation of church and state, privacy, recreational drug use, homosexuality, censorship issues — there had come to be two definable polarities. Furthermore, it was not just that there were a number of divisive issues, but that society had divided along essentially the same lines on each of these issues, so as to constitute two warring groups, defined primarily not by nominal religion, ethnicity, social class, or even political affiliation, but rather by ideological world views. > > Hunter characterised this polarity as stemming from opposite impulses, toward what he refers to as Progressivism and Orthodoxy. The dichotomy has been adopted with varying labels, including, for example, by FOX News commentator Bill O’Reilly who emphasizes differences between “Secular-Progressives” and “Traditionalists”. > > In 1990 paleoconservative commentator Pat Buchanan mounted a campaign for the Republican nomination for President of the United States against incumbent George H. W. Bush in 1992. He received a prime time speech slot at the 1992 Republican National Convention, which is sometimes dubbed the “‘culture war’ speech”.[3] > > During his speech, he said: “There is a religious war going on in our country for the soul of America. It is a cultural war, as critical to the kind of nation we will one day be as was the Cold War itself.” [1] In addition to criticizing “environmental extremists” and “radical feminism,” he said public morality was a defining issue: > > > [@](#): > > > > The agenda [Bill] Clinton and [Hillary] Clinton would impose on America — abortion on demand, a litmus test for the Supreme Court, homosexual rights, discrimination against religious schools, women in combat — that’s change, all right. But it is not the kind of change America wants. It is not the kind of change America needs. And it is not the kind of change we can tolerate in a nation that we still call God’s country.[4] > > A month later, Buchanan elaborated that this conflict was about power over society’s definition of right and wrong. He named abortion, sexual orientation and popular culture as major fronts – and mentioned other controversies, including clashes over the Confederate Flag, Christmas and taxpayer-funded art. He also said that the negative attention his talk of a culture war received was itself evidence of America’s polarization.[5] > > When Buchanan ran for President in 1996, he promised to fight for the conservative side of the culture war: > > > [@](#): > > > > I will use the bully pulpit of the Presidency of the United States, to the full extent of my power and ability, to defend American traditions and the values of faith, family, and country, from any and all directions. And, together, we will chase the purveyors of sex and violence back beneath the rocks whence they came.[6] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/31 "2009-08-18T14:12:22Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > As a grad student in rhetoric . . . [That’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivium_(education)) still taught?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/32 "2009-08-18T15:10:42Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > On the other hand, we’ve gone from believing that all cultures are equally valid, including inner city ones, to arguing over whether the failure of the bulk of black America are cultural or innate. Also the ideas of social construction, postmodernism, and deconstruction are falling out of vogue. Finally, and most strikingly, nobody important will cop to being a Marxist today, whereas 40 and especially 80 years ago that would have been a perfectly respectable thing to say. All if which is of interest only to academics, intellectuals, politicians and policy wonks, and has nothing to do with the terms of the much more demotic “Culture War” Pat Buchanan identified (some would say, declared) in 1992, as discussed in post #30. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/33 "2009-08-18T15:14:01Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Anyway, most of the so-called “culture war” was made up of what I call “junk food issues”–the political equivalent of empty calories. They get a lot of people interested and inflamed but ultimately no have little or no importance in how the country is governed. But they do, at least in the sense that if the RW wins decisive victory on any culture-war issue – e.g., abortion – the results will affect the daily lives of millions of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/34 "2009-08-18T15:26:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > How odd that when the rich get a big bonus and the poor and middle class get nothing - in fact lose out - it isn’t a class war, but when the status quo ante is to be restored when the trickle down didn’t work, it is a class war. From _Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them,_ by Al Franken: > [@](#): > > Anytime a liberal points out that the wealthy are disproportionately benefiting from Bush’s tax policies, Republicans shout, “class warfare!” > > In her book _A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous Fourteenth Century,_ Barbara Tuchman writes about a peasant revolt in 1358 that began in the village of St. Leu and spread throughout the Oise Valley. At one estate, the serfs sacked the manor house, killed the knight, and roasted him on a spit in front of his wife and kids. Then, after ten or twelve peasants violated the lady, with the children still watching, they forced her to eat the roasted flesh of her husband and then killed her. > > _That_ is class warfare. > > Arguing over the optimal marginal tax rate for the top one percent is not. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/35 "2009-08-18T16:36:37Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > I realized that I forgot to link to the post containing [data](http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php) for this claim. Heh. That’s another case of academics mistaking their little battles for culture. Not that I wouldn’t be in the midst of it if I were an academic in that area; it’s a lot more interesting than worrying about real issues. When this stuff swings any votes, then I’ll consider them a part of the real culture wars. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/36 "2009-08-18T17:09:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I for one was stunned to hear that the Progressive Studies Program of the Center for American Progress is predicting a shift towards more progressive views in the cultural arena. Who could have seen that one coming? [shrug] If you’ve got a source that says different, bring it. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/37 "2009-08-18T19:48:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But they do, at least in the sense that if the RW wins decisive victory on any culture-war issue – e.g., abortion – the results will affect the daily lives of millions of Americans. True, but once the election is over, the issue of abortion recedes into the background as other matters (e.g., tax cuts, deregulation, and increased military spending) are given more importance. Sure, the Republicans will remind pro-lifers of where they stand on abortion during the anniversary of _Roe v. Wade_ or whenever there’s a new Supreme Court selection but then it’s back into the closet until the next election. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/38 "2009-08-18T19:56:49Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > On the other hand, we’ve gone from believing that all cultures are equally valid, including inner city ones, to arguing over whether the failure of the bulk of black America are cultural or innate. Wait - am I reading this correctly? Are you saying there are seriously people who are arguing not only that the “bulk of black America” is a failure, but also that, if it is, it would be because blacks are naturally inferior? My apologies if I’m misinterpreting; this just seems like a baffling claim. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/39 "2009-08-18T20:08:23Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Wait - am I reading this correctly? Are you saying there are seriously people who are arguing not only that the “bulk of black America” is a failure, but also that, if it is, it would be because blacks are naturally inferior? My apologies if I’m misinterpreting; this just seems like a baffling claim. It might be, [but it’s hardly news.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736/40 "2009-08-18T20:52:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I for one was stunned to hear that the Progressive Studies Program of the Center for American Progress is predicting a shift towards more progressive views in the cultural arena. Who could have seen that one coming? On my first read of the OP, I misread the source of this study as, “The Progressive Studies Center for American Progress.” Which made the findings sound even more impressive! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-culture-wars-coming-to-an-end-rw-loses/506736.md?page=3)