# America's greatest taboo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2002, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975 "2002-09-21T10:29:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/41 "2002-09-22T13:40:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > \*\* > > I’m talking about Tom Clancy! \*\* Then I can dig it. So has there been anyone in this thread who has linked to a source that the other side doesn’t consider biased? I’ve never actually heard of this incident and I’d like to learn more. ---
**Author:** ![Havel.2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@Havel.2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Havel.2002)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/42 "2002-09-22T14:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\* > > Then I can dig it. > So has there been anyone in this thread who has linked to a source that the other side doesn’t consider biased? I’ve never actually heard of this incident and I’d like to learn more. \*\* her is the hompage for the USS Liberty - persons who survived the attack - include several links, photos and soundfiles [http://www.ussliberty.org/washrp96.txt](http://www.ussliberty.org/washrp96.txt) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/43 "2002-09-22T14:03:17Z")
First of all, didn’t the U.S. Air Force just kill a bunch of Canadian troops? What were _they_ covering up? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Henry B \* > \*\* > But back to Israel. It is not the citizens that makes this and that in the war that goes on there in the neighbouring areas. > It is the government. There are Jews that goes to prison, rather than out as solidiers to the occupied areas. There are very many Jews in Israel that are against the occupation. > They are heros in my eyes. > > People reacts, that is human, but a state have to stand for they policy. > > \*\* That is perhaps the most insulting thing I’ve ever read here. Let me explain something to you: Israel is a _democracy_. The Israeli govenrment is the freely elected representitive of the Israeli people, and it does what we want it to do. Maybe 50 Israelis a year go to prison rather than serve in the Territories. A handful; a pittance. The rest of us are proud to serve our country even if we don’t agree with all its policies. Most Israelis who oppose the occupation express their oposition the proper way - by voting. Countries without democracy are dictatorships. Citizens of dictatorships are slaves. Are you calling me a slave? P.S. I’ve also read more than a bit about Jewish history - and all I’ve seen is people everywhere killing Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Havel.2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@Havel.2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Havel.2002)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/44 "2002-09-22T15:13:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*First of all, didn’t the U.S. Air Force just kill a bunch of Canadian troops? > > P.S. I’ve also read more than a bit about Jewish history - and all I’ve seen is people everywhere killing Jews. \*\* the sufferings of your people are not so unique as you think. A lot of ethnic groups and races have been killed back in history. Nativa-Americans and other natives, Afro-Americans, Kurds, Palestinians (by your kind), Gypsies, chineese, etc etc Several millions of russians where killed by Stalin under his rule. Jews are not better than other people, maybe worse You have killed, bullied, destroyed Palestinians for over 50 years. You have demolished their homes and made many of the refugees And this have happend in a country that isn’t yours ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/45 "2002-09-22T15:32:45Z")
So, Havel, ever spend any time on the old FidoNet? Just curious… ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/46 "2002-09-22T15:38:44Z")
Well goodie, I wanted to learn about this US taboo but I see we’ve _completely_ dropped that pretense and just gone straight to the Jew bashing. First, I’d like to understand why you believe that Israel isn’t a Jewish country. Second, explain why I, a Jew, am worse than other people when I’ve lived my entire life in the United States. We can discuss other things later. I just wanted to start off with these two to get the ball rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Havel.2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@Havel.2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Havel.2002)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/47 "2002-09-22T15:39:16Z")
what is fidonet? ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/48 "2002-09-22T16:02:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Havel.2002 \* > \*\*what is fidonet? \*\* I dunno, but sounds the the ‘dog’ network, where this thread has obviously gone. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Havel.2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@Havel.2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Havel.2002)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/49 "2002-09-22T16:17:47Z")
back to the original post Are Americans to embarrassted to talk about the USS Liberty ? Seams to me that most Americans accept the fact that Israel did this on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/50 "2002-09-22T16:33:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Havel.2002 \* > \*\* > Are Americans to embarrassted to talk about the USS Liberty ? > \*\* No. We are not embarrassted, whatever the hell that means. Your pathetic attempts to bash Israel on this score will get you nowhere. Just because a minor military incident that happened three decades ago does not continue to make the nightly news does not mean that people are “to embarrassted” to talk about it. In case you haven’t noticed, an awful lot has happened around the world in the intervening 30 years, the overwhelming majority of which is no longer discussed with any regularity, not out of “embarrasstment,” but simply because it is no longer relevant. A question for you: What level of attention would the average American need to pay to the Liberty incident in order to satisfy you that they are not “to embarrassted” to talk about it? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/51 "2002-09-22T17:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*I’d say America’s greatest taboo would either be incest or sex with kids…probably sex with kids. \*\* Yeah, but those are harder to make witty remarks about, because … they’re taboo! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/52 "2002-09-22T18:03:09Z")
The Liberty incident was a disgusting chapter in history. And from what the survivors have said, it was deliberate-although it may have been a deliberate mistake on the part of those who attacked, knowing that it was an American ship even. HOWEVER, I don’t see what this has to do with Israel and Jews and our foreign relations TODAY. Someone is trip-tramping on my bridge! ---
**Author:** ![dave316](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dave316](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dave316)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/53 "2002-09-22T18:39:01Z")
i would not call 1967 ancient history this should be investigated and if it is found out that Israel deliberately attacked than the people responsible should be tried for war crimes ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/54 "2002-09-22T21:18:29Z")
For an excellent look at the the unfortunate events of the USS Liberty and why it (accidentally) occured I would suggest Michael Oren’s excellent [article](http://www.tnr.com/072301/oren072301.html) published at The New Republic (which someone will no doubt complain as a biasedsource). ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/55 "2002-09-22T22:53:44Z")
Michael Oren’s article was excellent, although it’s easy to see why it won’t hold much weight with a lot of people. Can you find a source that doesn’t (at least, in the minds of some) have a rather large conflict of interest? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2002, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/56 "2002-09-23T00:40:11Z")
Probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Kitfox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@Kitfox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kitfox)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/57 "2002-09-23T04:02:43Z")
Don’t here a lot of people talking about the USS Stark these days either, even though its 20 years more recent and involved a country were are currently considering war with. 37 people were killed on the USS Stark when it was hit by 2 Exocet Missiles fired from an Iraqi Mirage fighter. As I recall, nothing much was done about this incident. There was some criticism of Iraq, but relations with the country didn’t really turn south until the invasion of Kuwait. There was no criticism at all of France, who sold the plane and missile to Iraq. So, saying was “covered up” or whatever isn’t really accurate. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/58 "2002-09-23T04:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dave316 \* > \*\*if it is found out that Israel deliberately attacked than the people responsible should be tried for war crimes \*\* While deliberately attacking the ship of an ally and then denying the incident is certainly not a nice thing to do, it hardly qualifies as a “war crime.” ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/59 "2002-09-23T04:07:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kitfox \* > \*\*Don’t here a lot of people talking about the USS Stark these days either, even though its 20 years more recent and involved a country were are currently considering war with. > > 37 people were killed on the USS Stark when it was hit by 2 Exocet Missiles fired from an Iraqi Mirage fighter. As I recall, nothing much was done about this incident. There was some criticism of Iraq, but relations with the country didn’t really turn south until the invasion of Kuwait. There was no criticism at all of France, who sold the plane and missile to Iraq. > > So, saying was “covered up” or whatever isn’t really accurate. \*\* It was really an elaborate Israeli cover for the massacer of Palestinian women and children. Then the “Jews” lobbied Congress not to investigate. Iraq was just the innocent fall-guy, didn’t you know? Of course now everyone is simply too embarrassed to talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2002, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975/60 "2002-09-23T04:22:48Z")
If it helps, and it probably doesn’t, Body of Secrets, a book by James Bamford on the NSA, has an entire chapter with a blow by blow of the attack. The Liberty didn’t need to be there. The Joint Chiefs ordered it in for a unnecessary closer look, they’d already found a sweet spot. They countermanded the order, but the change got held up for thirteen-sixteen hours by a by the books officer who wanted confirmation, before sending it to the Liberty, and the confirmation got sent to Hawaii. They were within sight of a mosque at El Arish, a really vicious massacre of prisoners by the Israelis. They got worked over by about two flights of aircraft, with the flag up, then blasted by torpedo boats. According to intercepted chatter, the Israelis knew what they were shooting. This was a bad scene. And I don’t like it at all. I can understand why, from a greater perspective why the war happened. I can understand why the French worked with the Israelis to lie about the Egyptians attacking. (According to said book… which seems to have decent citations. Correct me if I’m wrong… lemme find a url.) [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385499078/qid=1032754323/sr=8-2/ref=sr\_8\_2/002-5734422-3350465?v=glance&s=books&n=507846](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385499078/qid=1032754323/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/002-5734422-3350465?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) Scary darn book. According to it, we almost had a military coup at the time of JFK’s inaugration, and a few other spooky things. It’s probably biased, but… well. Anyhow, I can understand why anything moving in a warzone dies. I just don’t have to like it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-greatest-taboo/128975.md?page=4)