# America's unemployment is not due to a skills mismatch. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034 "2011-06-02T02:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/41 "2011-06-04T12:26:37Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Don’t be daft. Imagine what we could do with hundreds of thousands of new chemical and mechanical and electrical engineers, software programmers, super-lingual translators, carpenters, electricians, doctors, and artists. Prices would crash, it’s true. And a lot of them would go unemployed. Please, before you keep arguing, do the math. How many job openings are there? What is the population of working age Americans? Compare. Discuss. The entire argument you’re making here fails because you keep not getting the math. > [@](#): > > But you’d be paid in super-valuable currency. Everything from customer service to rock bands would improve. We could afford to vastly increase the lifestyle of everyone in America and have wealth left to burn on whatever we like. Not true. We still have the cost of natural resources to provide for our creature comforts or even our survival. Those prices will not drop by much in that situation. Given the number of job openings there are versus the number of people looking for work, the math states unambiguously that there would still be people without any jobs, and thus without any money. Which puts even the cheapest lifestyles out of their reach… except homelessness and dumpster diving. > [@](#): > > Good God, man! You’ve just handwaved away a new Golden Age for all America, if not mankind! Incorrect. I’ve called bullshit on a Golden Age that cannot possibly exist under your theories. > [@](#): > > Possbly, but in that case you’d have an America so productive that people simply had no need to work. _Pepsi snort_ Please tell me you’re joking. How in the world do you make the Stargate-level leap between super high productivity and no one needing to work? > [@](#): > > That would not prcisely be a bad thing. In any case, it’s implausible at best. People more or less find work to do if they can, though it it may take a long time. I’m sure that dirt-farming peasants when Christ was born would be shocekd to hear that 90-95% of the population wasn’t farming, and couldn’t imagine what else we might do with our time. I believe the Roman Empire which ruled the land at the time had a problem with providing the dole for its working poor or jobless at the time. Or was that later? In any case, you even admit your scenario is implausible. Let’s stick with what is plausible, please? > [@](#): > > How do I put this? You don’t seem to know or understand much about economics. You seem to think of productivity improvements _as a bad thing_, when they are the reason we have so much prosperity to lose in the first place. How do I put this? You seem to engage in fantasy economics without having a shred of ability to substantiate it. Plus you’re also not good at math. Few employers, if any, ever hire more workers when their staff becomes more productive. They hire when there’s more business, not when there’s more productivity. The fact that you fail to understand this most basic concept of ‘worker redundancy’ shows that you have no business lecturing me about economics. Or math. Or history. Because _you. fail. all. **three** _. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/42 "2011-06-04T12:27:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Job training outside of a job is pretty useless, in part because the people doing the training don’t know what is really needed, in part because the training runs in fads, so it produces an oversupply, in part because it is taking time to train for a shortage now which might not exist when people graduate, and in part because it attract conmen. Job training within a company is hardly useless. It is quite common in some countries for companies to hire the best they can find, assume they know nothing, and train them. I know several younger people who got hired and trained. In the old days it was called the apprentice system. ^^^^ This. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/43 "2011-06-04T16:35:53Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > And a lot of them would go unemployed. > > Please, before you keep arguing, do the math. How many job openings are there? What is the population of working age Americans? Compare. Discuss. If people had every skill imaginable, they wouldn’t need a job. They could do everything there is to be done themselves. Or they could make up a new job themselves just by looking around and seeing what needed to be done. There’s always a lot of stuff to be done. Heck, just the company I work for has a list of engineering projects a mile long if only they had people to work on them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/44 "2011-06-04T19:08:29Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > If people had every skill imaginable, they wouldn’t need a job. They could do everything there is to be done themselves. Or they could make up a new job themselves just by looking around and seeing what needed to be done. Don’t be ridiculous. I can program just fine, but coding all the things I want instead of buying them would be stupid. Adam Smith knew it was cheaper to make pins in a pin factory than to do it oneself. > [@](#): > > There’s always a lot of stuff to be done. Heck, just the company I work for has a list of engineering projects a mile long if only they had people to work on them. Does it have the money to hire them? If you can’t find good engineers today, you need to find a new HR department - or plan to pay them some more money, or even, _gasp_ train some. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/45 "2011-06-04T19:30:28Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > There are No jobs because there is no manufacturing. Every job lost to chinese imports supported 4-5 other jobs (sales, delivery, secretarial) . > all the "retraining’ in the world won’t help this. > these next ropund of layofffs will be municipal employess (police, teachers, DPW,etc.) The Obma printed-up "stimulus’ money has run out. > Keep “Hope and Change” alive!😃 That is probably the most correct post in history. You have the correct answer and you alone understand why we have the problems that we do and you alone know how to fix the economy (… and every other comment posted here is just nonsense). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/46 "2011-06-05T03:50:11Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Few employers, if any, ever hire more workers when their staff becomes more productive. They hire when there’s more business, not when there’s more productivity. The fact that you fail to understand this most basic concept of ‘worker redundancy’ shows that you have no business lecturing me about economics. Or math. Or history. Because _you. fail. all. **three** _. More productivity sometimes makes more business, because it can drive down prices. It also can provide more money for internal investments. If some of the productivity increase goes to the workers, they have more money to buy things and demand goes up. That is the missing piece these days - they put the extra money into profit and C level salaries, then wonder why there is a demand deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/47 "2011-06-05T05:40:30Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > If people had every skill imaginable, they wouldn’t need a job. They could do everything there is to be done themselves. Or they could make up a new job themselves just by looking around and seeing what needed to be done. Not entirely true. You couldn’t easily program your own computer, build and maintain your own shelter and also farm your own food. Perfect productivity or no, the time constraints would stop you at some point, or you’d drop dead of exhaustion. You still gotta barter and trade. Someone else will need to do some work for you. > [@](#): > > There’s always a lot of stuff to be done. Then why are there 4 people out of work for every 1 job opening? If all 4 of these statistical people manage to skill-up, 3 must still go without a job. The math cannot be denied. > [@Voyager](#): > > More productivity sometimes makes more business, because it can drive down prices. It also can provide more money for internal investments. If some of the productivity increase goes to the workers, they have more money to buy things and demand goes up. That is the missing piece these days - they put the extra money into profit and C level salaries, then wonder why there is a demand deficit. They spend the profits on C level salaries, investing in foreign economies… anything but their own workers. Which is part of why wages have also been falling behind inflation for _at least_ the last 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/48 "2011-06-05T15:23:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Don’t be ridiculous. I can program just fine, but coding all the things I want instead of buying them would be stupid. Adam Smith knew it was cheaper to make pins in a pin factory than to do it oneself. The whole premise of everyone having every possible skill is ridicuous. > [@](#): > > Does it have the money to hire them? If you can’t find good engineers today, you need to find a new HR department - or plan to pay them some more money, or even, _gasp_ train some. We’re hiring all the time. Mostly in our engineering offices in Amsterdam, Berlin, and Lodz, Poland, though. Some in our engineering offices in the US. Company’s headquarters is in Amstersdam, so it makes sense that they focus primarily in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/49 "2011-06-05T18:18:07Z")
The “math” here is really very simple, there can never be enough jobs for everyone, regardless of their skills or training. At some point someone has to start a new company and create new jobs for others. The 4 people for every job is a reflection of this flawed mentality, since there isn’t a job posting for someone to start a new company. Wanted: person with a new idea for a product/service that people both want and can afford. Cost of production needs to be lower than price of the the product. Both qualified and unqualified applicants can apply directly to the government for the required licenses. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/50 "2011-06-06T04:05:50Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > The whole premise of everyone having every possible skill is ridicuous. > > We’re hiring all the time. Mostly in our engineering offices in Amsterdam, Berlin, and Lodz, Poland, though. Some in our engineering offices in the US. Company’s headquarters is in Amstersdam, so it makes sense that they focus primarily in Europe. Ah hah. So how many positions do you have open? And how easy is it for unemployed Americans with the right skills to get a Visa to move and work there? Given the state of the American economy, their only hope now is to seek employment outside the US. Anywhere but here. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/51 "2011-06-06T04:31:32Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Ah hah. So how many positions do you have open? And how easy is it for unemployed Americans with the right skills to get a Visa to move and work there? > > Given the state of the American economy, their only hope now is to seek employment outside the US. Anywhere but here. We only have a few open positions in America, but as I said we are not an American company mainly – our main business offices, and indeed our biggest sales, are in Europe. However, we have a major competitor which is American. They have big engineering offices in Kansas and Oregon, and smaller ones scattered around the country. I presume they are working on the same kind of projects that we are. I just took a look at their website and they have 60 open engineering positions. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034/52 "2011-06-06T06:20:04Z")
Did anyone say it was due to a “skills mismatch”? > [@smiling bandit](#): > > If you look at curent unemployment, you can pretty easily see where the worst of the housing and worst of the unemployment occured - mostly Blue states. And there are som substantial reasons for this, stretching back decades. A combination of old and poorly-considered regulation and unionism, but mcuh more cultural changes which don’t support business and entrepreneurship so much, have raised the costs of new business. Fewer people are starting business. And the old industries that supported many of the Blue states are dying. The data does not support your theory: From BLS - top states for unemployment (7 Red, 4 Blue, 2 Purple) 38 IDAHO 9.6 - Red 38 OREGON 9.6 - Blue 38 TENNESSEE 9.6 - Red 42 NORTH CAROLINA 9.7 - Red 43 SOUTH CAROLINA 9.8 - Red 44 GEORGIA 9.9 - Red 45 KENTUCKY 10.0 - Red 46 MICHIGAN 10.2 - Blue 47 MISSISSIPPI 10.4 - Red 48 FLORIDA 10.8 - Purple 49 RHODE ISLAND 10.9 - Blue 50 CALIFORNIA 11.9 - Blue 51 NEVADA 12.5 - Purple It’s not really a red state/blue state thing. It’s a combination of loss of American manufacturing / steel industry in rust belt states. Overbuilding and excessive real estate speculation in sun belt states. Downturn in the financial industry in NYC. The auto industry in Michigan. So on and so forth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/americas-unemployment-is-not-due-to-a-skills-mismatch/584034.md?page=2)