# Amish hate crimes trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 28, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880 "2012-08-28T00:57:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/1 "2012-08-28T00:57:08Z")
As to the criminal case of _United States v. Samuel Mullet Jr. et al._: > **[Hate crimes trial against Amish begins | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/27/justice/amish-beard-cutting-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)** > > Federal prosecutors are expected to argue that an Amish sect leader, accused of beard-cutting attacks against fellow Amish, was operating a cult. This is some messed-up shit, if true (and it looks like it is). I had a course on the Amish in college, and have had some dealings with them over the years. I would never have dreamed of anything like this. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/2 "2012-08-28T01:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > In addition, the affidavit alleges that, as the bishop of an Amish clan in Bergholz, Ohio, Mullet had “acts of sexual intimacy” with married women as part of “counseling” to “cleanse them of the devil.” … And the lead is about “… orchestrating beard-cutting attacks against fellow Amish men, …” ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/3 "2012-08-28T01:55:24Z")
I know we’ve had at least one thread about this before, maybe more. It’s taken them a long time to actually get to trial. However it ends up, that dude has got some screws loose, that’s for sure. I don’t know why it seems so strange - being Amish doesn’t make you automatically mentally balanced or anything. What I’m more impressed by is that the victims were actually willing to let this go to trial at all - normally they try to keep their personal stuff contained and dealt with in their own community before it gets to the point of having to involve the “English” authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/4 "2012-08-28T02:47:43Z")
Huh. The report says the guy used “battery-powered” clippers. Isn’t that a big no-no right there? I didn’t know you could charge a hate crimes against people in the same protected class. I guess this guy is leading some splinter Amish group, but still, that’s Amish on Amish hate, right? Hate crimes are just weird. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/5 "2012-08-28T04:27:39Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > I know we’ve had at least one thread about this before, maybe more… I searched past threads for the word “Amish” and found nothing on point. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/6 "2012-08-28T05:09:41Z")
“Hate crimes” are considered more heinous that any similar physical act would otherwise be if it weren’t motivated by “hate”. So how serious must the physical act of a “hate crime” be to warrant a life sentence? I suppose the forcible hair-cutting would be some variation of “assault and battery”? But there was no murder, or stabbing, or rape, or breaking of bones, nor any apparent attempt at any things like that. Just a forcible beard trim? I can see that, if this is “hate motivated”, then yes, it could be a “hate crime”. But I’m not seeing what’s so heinous here as to deserve life in jail. As for the pervy pranks with the wives of the faithful, even that doesn’t clearly sound like a life-in-jail-worthy crime, since it doesn’t quite sound like rape. And that doesn’t seem to be what he’s on trial for here anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/7 "2012-08-28T10:59:24Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Huh. The report says the guy used “battery-powered” clippers. Isn’t that a big no-no right there? No. Contrary to stereotype, Amish do not reject ALL technology. They are darn fussy what technology they do and do not adopt, and what is and isn’t permitted varies from one Amish group to another. Battery operated devices, particularly tools, are frequently permitted. > [@](#): > > I didn’t know you could charge a hate crimes against people in the same protected class. I guess this guy is leading some splinter Amish group, but still, that’s Amish on Amish hate, right? That’s like saying Catholics and Protestants going to war are Christian on Christian hate. You’re not allowed to persecute someone else for their religion, even if the two of you are allegedly in related sects. The while all Amish have a lot in common from an outsider’s perspective, they have a lot of debates and differences between their various sub-groups. Some of it can get quite heated although, in keeping with general Amish traits, any of it getting physical is HIGHLY unusual. > [@Senegoid](#): > > “Hate crimes” are considered more heinous that any similar physical act would otherwise be if it weren’t motivated by “hate”. > > So how serious must the physical act of a “hate crime” be to warrant a life sentence? I suppose the forcible hair-cutting would be some variation of “assault and battery”? But there was no murder, or stabbing, or rape, or breaking of bones, nor any apparent attempt at any things like that. Just a forcible beard trim? Yes, involuntary hair-cuts are assault and battery. There may also be issues such as unlawful restraint (holding someone down against their will). Do we \*have \*to wait until this guy progresses to bone breaking? > [@](#): > > I can see that, if this is “hate motivated”, then yes, it could be a “hate crime”. But I’m not seeing what’s so heinous here as to deserve life in jail. That’s a _potential_ maximum, it’s not mandated, and would be unlikely to be imposed even if the defendants are found guilty on all counts. > [@](#): > > As for the pervy pranks with the wives of the faithful, even that doesn’t clearly sound like a life-in-jail-worthy crime, since it doesn’t quite sound like rape. If there was coercion involved, even “merely” verbal coercion, then it’s rape. Saying “either you have sex with me or your family will be shunned/exiled” would qualify as coercion, and that would make it rape. They might be going after the beard-trimming because _they have victims willing to go to court_, meaning this is a charge they might actually be able to convict him for. Prosecutors might have preferred to bring rape charges but if no victims are willing to come forward that’s just not going to work. Clearly this guy is disruptive - he’s causing significant behavior changes in the surrounding community because people feel threatened by him. It’s also alarming he and his followers have gotten physical at all, given the cultural prohibitions against violence of any sort among the Amish. Clearly, social norms are no longer restraining him. It’s bad enough that the Amish are turning to outsiders for help. These are all indications that this has the potential to get much worse, and probably authorities feel that if he can put him and his cronies in jail for awhile over the beard cutting it will eliminate the problem from the community. Amish criminals do exist, even if they aren’t common, up to an including murder. Being Amish is, as already pointed out, no guarantee of mental stability. They have their bad boys, just like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/8 "2012-08-28T11:41:08Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > They have their bad boys, just like everyone else. I don’t watch much TV, but an Amish version of COPS would draw my attention. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/9 "2012-08-28T12:25:25Z")
> [@](#): > > ``` > In the eyes of the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's office, Mullet and his followers are a band of renegades waging hate crime attacks motivated by cruelty and retaliation against their enemies. Cutting beards and head hair causes "disfigurement" -- an essential element of a hate crime, according to prosecutors. > > ``` > > But what federal prosecutors call hate crimes, punishable by life in prison, Mullet calls an exercise of his religious freedom. God’s will allowed him to mete out punishment as he saw fit, he said, giving him the power to shame and punish people who ostracized the Bergholz clan and who defied his laws. ( [Amish beard-cutting trial attracts international attention, pitting law of God vs. law of man - cleveland.com](http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/08/amish_beard-cutting_trial_attr.html) ) This should be a very interesting trial. They can certainly afford a good attorney and I’m sure they’re not going to back down on the Freedom of Religion thing. But, technically, I don’t think he had authority to punish the people that they assaulted. This was more like a gang from a Church at one end of town going after members of a Church at the other end of town. (Except they victims were all over Eastern Ohio). ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/10 "2012-08-28T15:06:33Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I don’t watch much TV, but an Amish version of COPS would draw my attention. Clop clop clop _bang_ clop clop clop _bang_ clop clop clop _bang_. Amish drive-by. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/11 "2012-08-28T15:12:29Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > “Hate crimes” are considered more heinous that any similar physical act would otherwise be if it weren’t motivated by “hate”. > … > I can see that, if this is “hate motivated”, then yes, it could be a “hate crime”. But I’m not seeing what’s so heinous here as to deserve life in jail. > … This is one of the things the Dope has taught me. “hate crime” is not the best choice of words to call these laws. It is not the hating that is at issue. It is not about “thought police”. It should be called some form of terrorism. The point of the laws is to protect people of the same class as the victim from threats to their physical safety. What makes it a “hate crime” is committing an act that in itself, or doing it in such a way as to “send a message” to other members of the protected class. Shooting a black man in a drug deal gone wrong is not a hate crime, regardless how you feel about black people. Hanging a black man from a noose to be found in a public park IS a hate crime, even if you can show that you have loved every single black person except that one individual. This is because the history of black people being lynched is so well known, that it would be very difficult to convince a jury that you were not trying to send a message to all black people to keep their place, and by leaving the body in a public place, you made it obvious to all what had occurred. In the Amish incident, it is clear that a message was being sent that you do not cross the Mullet bunch. Because religiously distinct groups are protected classes, this becomes a hate crime. If this were rival street gangs, it would probably not be a hate crime because street gangs are not a protected class…of course many street gangs divide along racial lines, so it could fall under race as a protected class if the nature of the crime were such that it appeared to target a race rather than a gang. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/12 "2012-08-28T15:22:10Z")
[quote=“Broomstick, post:7, topic:632880”] No. Contrary to stereotype, Amish do not reject ALL technology. They are darn fussy what technology they do and do not adopt, and what is and isn’t permitted varies from one Amish group to another. Battery operated devices, particularly tools, are frequently permitted. … The while all Amish have a lot in common from an outsider’s perspective, they have a lot of debates and differences between their various sub-groups. Some of it can get quite heated although, in keeping with general Amish traits, any of it getting physical is HIGHLY unusual. …QUOTE] There is a community of “Beachy” Amish in Fauquier County, VA that drive cars and use electricity but frown on watching TV and using the Internet for non-work related purposes. They are really nice and friendly. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/13 "2012-08-28T16:06:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No. Contrary to stereotype, Amish do not reject ALL technology. They are darn fussy what technology they do and do not adopt, and what is and isn’t permitted varies from one Amish group to another. Battery operated devices, particularly tools, are frequently permitted. I went into an Amish furniture store a couple of weeks ago in rural Colorado. The proprietor had his horse and buggy parked in front of the store, there were no electric lights on, and the store itself was just a semi-open building with the pieces spread around. My daughter really loved some of the furniture so I asked the Amish man if we have some shipped to us later since we couldn’t carry it on the plane. He replied “Sure! We ship anywhere and this is just a sample of what we have. Our website should be up soon so just shop from there.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/14 "2012-08-28T17:06:59Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > There is a community of “Beachy” Amish in Fauquier County, VA that drive cars and use electricity but frown on watching TV and using the Internet for non-work related purposes. They are really nice and friendly. Arguably, “Beachy Amish” are actually Mennonites… but both groups are strongly related anyway so maybe it’s a moot point after all. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > I went into an Amish furniture store a couple of weeks ago in rural Colorado. The proprietor had his horse and buggy parked in front of the store, there were no electric lights on, and the store itself was just a semi-open building with the pieces spread around. My daughter really loved some of the furniture so I asked the Amish man if we have some shipped to us later since we couldn’t carry it on the plane. > > He replied “Sure! We ship anywhere and this is just a sample of what we have. Our website should be up soon so just shop from there.” That’s a funny thing about the Amish… they’re allowed to hire “English” to do things like ships their goods and run a website for them. They also make distinctions between technology required for a job or a business and personal use of technology. It certainly does look confusing and/or contradictory from the outside, but they have their reasons. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/15 "2012-08-28T22:17:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Arguably, “Beachy Amish” are actually Mennonites… but both groups are strongly related anyway so maybe it’s a moot point after all. > That’s a funny thing about the Amish… they’re allowed to hire “English” to do things like ships their goods and run a website for them. They also make distinctions between technology required for a job or a business and personal use of technology. It certainly does look confusing and/or contradictory from the outside, but they have their reasons. Interestingly enough, the phenomenon of a person hiring someone else to do something that they are not supposed to do according to their religion is also a [concept](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy) in Judaism, though the rules appear to be complex and not all work is permitted - there isn’t a carte blanche “hey, he isn’t one of us so go ahead and hire him to do anything” attitude. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/16 "2012-08-29T01:01:26Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Interestingly enough, the phenomenon of a person hiring someone else to do something that they are not supposed to do according to their religion is also a [concept](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy) in Judaism, though the rules appear to be complex and not all work is permitted - there isn’t a carte blanche “hey, he isn’t one of us so go ahead and hire him to do anything” attitude. I bought a very nice, really heavy 10 x 12 Amish built shed. It was delivered by truck, driven by a non-Amish employee. The Amish guy who accompanied the driver did all the paper work and all of the talking. He also directed the driver very precisely, guiding him to the exact spot the truck needed to be at. Then he directed him, step by step, how to operate the hydraulic tilting bed so that the shed slid slowly down to the pad. Woulda been way simpler for the Amish dude to do all of it.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/17 "2012-08-30T22:14:02Z")
A photo has been released in the trial" [http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/30/justice/amish-beard-cutting-attack-photo/index.html?hpt=hp\_t3](http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/30/justice/amish-beard-cutting-attack-photo/index.html?hpt=hp_t3) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/18 "2012-08-30T22:39:12Z")
The guy sounds like yer classic cult leader. Screwing all the women based on some special license granted to him by the sky pixie to which he has privileged access. Considering that he is outside the law, and indeed is the law, with the right to punish people for not obeying his rules. It was always going to end in tears. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/19 "2012-09-10T19:18:15Z")
Looks like the prosecution’s case is winding down: [http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/09/amish\_beard-cutting\_trial\_pros\_2.html](http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/09/amish_beard-cutting_trial_pros_2.html) ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/20 "2012-09-10T19:36:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Saying “either you have sex with me or your family will be shunned/exiled” would qualify as coercion, and that would make it rape. cite? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880.md?page=2)