# Amish hate crimes trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 28, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880 "2012-08-28T00:57:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/21 "2012-09-10T20:45:45Z")
What cite? It’s a hypothetical. Beyond that, in the event you really don’t get it, non-physical intimidation, blackmail, or threats are just as much coercion as punching someone in the mouth and physically holding them down. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/22 "2012-09-10T21:28:32Z")
I’ve been to Holmes County, OH quite a few times. I’m not sure what their “rules” are, but they seem contradictory. Last time I was in Berlin (Ohio), I saw an Amish guy playing a game on his smartphone. ---
**Author:** ![StuffLikeThatThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@StuffLikeThatThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StuffLikeThatThere)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/23 "2012-09-10T22:14:12Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I’ve been to Holmes County, OH quite a few times. I’m not sure what their “rules” are, but they seem contradictory. Last time I was in Berlin (Ohio), I saw an Amish guy playing a game on his smartphone. My husband’s friend sometimes called him from his cell phone while driving his buggy. He thought it was funny too. The short answer is that you’re right. A lot of their rules seem contradictory. A more complete answer is really involved but includes the fact that each sect, and there are many different sects in Holmes County, has its own Ordnung. Some of them allow cell phones. Some do not. Some allow pneumatic tires. Some do not. There is no one set of Amish rules. And that doesn’t even include some of the more conservative Mennonites who would look Amish but do a lot of things people wouldn’t expect Amish people to do. Like many things, it’s a little more complicated than it looks at first blush. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/24 "2012-09-10T22:37:47Z")
I can’t see the mullets for the beards. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/25 "2012-09-11T11:51:04Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What cite? It’s a hypothetical. > > Beyond that, in the event you really don’t get it, non-physical intimidation, blackmail, or threats are just as much coercion as punching someone in the mouth and physically holding them down. It depends on what you mean by a threat. A religious sanction doesn’t count, unless you want to argue the guys who run cults who say the only way to salvation are to sleep with them are attempting to rape the entire world. Sorry, but that’s a crazy position to hold. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/26 "2012-09-11T12:12:14Z")
When the “religious sanction” means no one in the community will speak with you, interact with you, sit down and eat with you, and basically treats you as a non-person yes, that would count as coercion. It’s not just “the Invisible Sky Pixie will be cross with you and you’ll make the Baby Jesus Cry”, it’s a religious sanction with real world consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/27 "2012-09-18T22:04:05Z")
The Amish, shunning, and this case: [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/16/amish-beard-cutting-shunning_n_1888200.html?ir=Religion&ref=topbar) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/28 "2012-09-25T02:30:19Z")
The jury has found all guilty on all charges: [Sam Mullet, guilty of hate crimes in Amish beard-cutting attacks; 15 others guilty of related crimes - cleveland.com](http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/09/sam_mullet_guilty_of_hate_crim.html) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/29 "2012-09-25T11:21:47Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > When the “religious sanction” means no one in the community will speak with you, interact with you, sit down and eat with you, and basically treats you as a non-person yes, that would count as coercion. Sounds like the way my community treats a guy who is a convicted pedophile. Just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/30 "2013-02-08T22:25:40Z")
Federal judge gives 15 years in prison to the leader; lesser sentences for the others: [http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/08/justice/amish-beard-cutting-trial/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/08/justice/amish-beard-cutting-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/31 "2013-02-08T22:44:01Z")
Finally! Our long local nightmare can end! I heard his daughter on the radio the other day. She had gone to the jail to have her father officiate at her wedding. She didn’t seem to have much to say except, “he’s my dad, and we miss him” . Don’t know what I expected from her, but she seemed very normal. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/32 "2013-02-11T13:18:51Z")
Although the linked article mentions only beards, CNN is calling it the “Amish hair-cutting case,” and [a 2011 story](http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/10/justice/amish-crime/index.html) mentions “beards and other hair.” The distinction is important, because if this guy actually cut head hair, the fact that he’s named **Mullet** and is going to jail for haircuts is a whole order of magnitude funnier. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/33 "2013-02-11T16:44:33Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I can’t see the mullets for the beards. But I can see buttons in Mullet’s shirt and I thought that was a no-no among the amish. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/34 "2013-02-11T17:02:59Z")
> [@StuffLikeThatThere](#): > > My husband’s friend sometimes called him from his cell phone while driving his buggy. He thought it was funny too. > > The short answer is that you’re right. A lot of their rules seem contradictory. > > A more complete answer is really involved but includes the fact that each sect, and there are many different sects in Holmes County, has its own Ordnung. Some of them allow cell phones. Some do not. Some allow pneumatic tires. Some do not. There is no one set of Amish rules. And that doesn’t even include some of the more conservative Mennonites who would look Amish but do a lot of things people wouldn’t expect Amish people to do. Like many things, it’s a little more complicated than it looks at first blush. What it comes down to in most ordnungs is — can “x” be isolated and totally turned off on Sunday. A standard landline telephone can’t since even if you unplug the phone, the lines are still a live part of the grid. Which is why even liberal communities had their landlines off their property if they had one at all and NEVER EVER in a house. (since worship is based in the house) A cell phone is another story - you can remove the battery if you wish and not activate any of the missed calls/message systems so on Sunday it becomes nothing. Same basic thing why they aren’t on the power grid but often have generators. PS – Holmes County, last I knew, had the most dense/highest population of Amish/OOD in the world so its no big surprise that problems pop up their first. Sort of like Catholic problems happening in Boston or Lutherans in Minnesota/Mid-west. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/35 "2013-02-11T17:10:19Z")
It seems a bit excessive to me. I’m not totally convinced it was a hate crime. Really just plain assault and battery. Maybe a year for each crime? I think there were maybe 3 times his guys went out with clippers? So three years. I know they say Mullet was running his own cult and had frightened many of the other Amish. But 15 years for cutting a beard? Really??? I recall stories of hippies in the sixties running into trouble in rural conservative areas. Supposedly a few got forced haircuts and shaved. Yes its an assault but a year in jail is more than enough punishment. imho > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Federal judge gives 15 years in prison to the leader; lesser sentences for the others: [http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/08/justice/amish-beard-cutting-trial/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/08/justice/amish-beard-cutting-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/36 "2013-02-11T17:23:03Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It seems a bit excessive to me. I’m not totally convinced it was a hate crime. Really just plain assault and battery. Maybe a year for each crime? I think there were maybe 3 times his guys went out with clippers? So three years. > > I know they say Mullet was running his own cult and had frightened many of the other Amish. But 15 years for cutting a beard? Really??? > > I recall stories of hippies in the sixties running into trouble in rural conservative areas. Supposedly a few got forced haircuts and shaved. Yes its an assault but a year in jail is more than enough punishment. imho I tend to agree with you, but I’m not entirely sure of the nature of the charges. I saw one news story that claimed kidnapping was involved in one or more of the assaults, and if that’s true the sentence is more understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/37 "2014-08-27T16:52:37Z")
The Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals has reversed the convictions: [Sentencing Law and Policy: Based on Burrage, split Sixth Circuit panel reverses federal hate crime convictions for Amish beard-cutters](http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2014/08/based-on-burrage-split-sixth-circuit-panel-reverses-federal-hate-crime-convictions-for-amish-beard-c.html) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/38 "2014-08-27T17:55:04Z")
Open season on Amos? ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/39 "2014-08-29T03:34:31Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > It should be called some form of terrorism. The point of the laws is to protect people of the same class as the victim from threats to their physical safety. I don’t think the jury will listen to such soap boxing. (making it academic rather than rule world and real person… ) I dont think this case warrants a jury trial. can’t they just leave it at state law ?? But asking a prosecutor to be “real world” and practical… that would be new. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880/40 "2014-08-29T04:28:32Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals has reversed the convictions: [http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing\_law\_and\_policy/2014/08/based-on-burrage-split-sixth-circuit-panel-reverses-federal-hate-crime-convictions-for-amish-beard-c.html](http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2014/08/based-on-burrage-split-sixth-circuit-panel-reverses-federal-hate-crime-convictions-for-amish-beard-c.html) They’ve reversed the _hate crime_ convictions. Some of the lesser charges remain, though if this sticks, I think it could mean some drastic reductions in prison times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amish-hate-crimes-trial/632880.md?page=3)