# Amnesty International 2002: Even more dishonest than......Amnesty International 2001 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2002, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360 "2002-06-04T19:58:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/81 "2002-06-14T21:19:04Z")
Anyone who wants to look past december’s one-sided and uninformed diatribes can see [Amnesty International’s position here](http://web.amnesty.org/802568F7005C4453/0/80256AB9000584F680256BD7004D26E4). ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/82 "2002-06-14T21:21:56Z")
Possible explanation # 4: AI wish to prompt the PA to live up to their own _rule of law_. Um, yeah, real Kafkaesque… ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/83 "2002-06-14T22:17:05Z")
P.S. I take back part of my comment before with apologies to december. I got a little hot under the collar for no reason. My post should have said: You can see [Amnesty International’s position here](http://web.amnesty.org/802568F7005C4453/0/80256AB9000584F680256BD7004D26E4). ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/84 "2002-06-14T22:28:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > \*\*Possible explanation # 4: AI wish to prompt the PA to live up to their own _rule of law_. Um, yeah, real Kafkaesque… \*\* Look, the Palestinians have a conflict. Their “rule of law” says Ahmed Sa’adat should be released, because he wasn’t charged. Their recent agreement with Sharon says they have to keep him imprisoned. The Oslo Accords also require them to not release Sa’adat. How should the PA resolve the conflict between their domestic law and international agreements? AI’s answer: [ul][li] Ignore the conflict![_]Ignore the likelihood of more murders.[_]Ignore the possibility that releasing Sa’adat would make it more difficult to reach agreement in the future. Ignore the possibility that if Arafat defaults on this agreement, Israel is more likely to resort to violence the next time. [/ul] **Formality trumps reality**. (a poem!) [/li]That’s Kafka, all right. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/85 "2002-06-14T22:32:19Z")
awww, he \*\*is \*\* Swiss… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/86 "2002-06-14T22:34:20Z")
I meant **Arnold** of course. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/87 "2002-06-14T22:37:04Z")
So you’re saying that a government should be allowed to imprison people without charges and/or a fair trail if it’s for the “greater good” ? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/88 "2002-06-14T22:37:31Z")
I meant **december** of course. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/89 "2002-06-15T00:41:30Z")
While we’re waiting for **december** ’s no doubt profound reply to **Arnold** ’s query, I’d just like to point out another example of AI’s shameful “bias”: > [@](#): > > _(from the public statement):_ > Both Israel and the PA have held detainees without charge or trial. After pressure from Israel to detain those accused of armed attacks on Israel, the PA has detained members of opposition groups for up to four years without charge or trial. It has also sentenced Palestinians after grossly unfair trials. Amnesty International has frequently raised concerns about such detentions. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/90 "2002-06-15T04:07:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\*So you’re saying that a government should be allowed to imprison people without charges and/or a fair trail if it’s for the “greater good” ? \*\* **xenophon41** interpreted this as a post that needs a response. I wasn’t going to bother, but now I will. **Arnold’s** post seemed unserious. I accused AI of making a demand, based on a single aspect of the situation, while ignoring the rest of the context. **Arnold’s** response was to make an argument based on a single aspect of the situation, while ignoring the rest of the context. But that was my original complaint. Frankly I’m too upset to play this game. If the PA released Sa’adat, he would most likely kill more Israelis. On a personal note, the most recent terrorists bombing took place in Herzliya, where my cousin and her family live. They were unharmed. If Arafat released Sa’adat, Israel would probably retaliate. They already have tanks in Ramallah. So, innocent Palestinians might well die, too. All this over a procedural matter. There seems to be little doubt that the man is a murderer. So, AI’s demand is at best the kind of tunnel vision to be expected from a zealot. They are blind to anything except the lack of arrest papers. He must be released. It doesn’t matter how many innocent Palestinians and Israelis die as a result. Bah! If anyone thinks the AI demand makes sense _within the overall context_, I’d be happy to see your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/91 "2002-06-16T01:59:03Z")
If the evidence against this man is so clear-cut, then it shouldn’t be hard to convict him in a trial that follows the country’s legal process. Why would authoritarian rule disregarding the country law’s help prevent dissent? If anything it will cause dissenters to become even more dissatisfied with the government and seek to take the law into their own hands. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/92 "2002-06-16T04:23:19Z")
I agree with you, **Arnold** , at least in principle. But, it’s more complicated here. In this case Sa’adat’s “dissent” (i.e, terrorism, murder and assassination) is against Israel, who is not the party exercising authoritarian rule here. The PA is indeed excising authoritarial rule, headed by Arafat, who has refused to hold an election in years. Arafat has agreed to provide security for Israel, and in partihcular, security aganst Sa’adat. But, the PA, being authoritarian, hasn’t bothered with due process. The bottom line is that AI demanded an action, which would lead to Israel being punished because of of the PA’s lack of civil liberties. This seems unreasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/93 "2002-06-16T08:06:45Z")
Fellow dopers, it is obvious that if anybody says anything short of “Let’s kill all the Arabs”, **december** will have a reason to bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/94 "2002-06-16T10:03:10Z")
I’m on **december** vacation so I won’t be taking part in the ‘fun’, but I thought I’d come in shortly from my break and for future reference let the honorable member know that I am a longstanding financial contributor to Amnesty. Add that to the list of ‘things that december finds disagreeable about Sparc’ right next to being European, neutral as re the conflict in Israel, being critical of the press and thinking that Arabic cultures can be cool. I’ll just go back to the hammock and argue with myself now. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/95 "2002-06-16T10:15:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\*If the evidence against this man is so clear-cut, then it shouldn’t be hard to convict him in a trial that follows the country’s legal process. Why would authoritarian rule disregarding the country law’s help prevent dissent? If anything it will cause dissenters to become even more dissatisfied with the government and seek to take the law into their own hands. \*\* The Palestinian Authority’s legal system seems incapable of dealing with anything but supposed arab ‘collaborators’, who get shot and hung up for public view. They are nothing if not efficient, at least. Anyhow, Arafat ignores the dictates of the PA courts whenever it is convenient to him. (The recent appointment of ministers comes to mind.) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/96 "2002-06-16T14:07:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparc \* let the honorable member know that I am a longstanding financial contributor to Amnesty. I am also a longstanding financial contributor to Amnesty. That’s another reason why I’m so annoyed by what they did. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/97 "2002-06-17T05:05:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > The Palestinian Authority’s legal system seems incapable of dealing with anything but supposed arab ‘collaborators’, who get shot and hung up for public view. And Amnesty International protests those executions also, which doesn’t fit in with the view of those who assert that Amnesty International’s position is that of jew-haters. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/98 "2002-06-18T13:18:30Z")
Last night on the Fox News Special Report, Brit Hume mentioned AI’s stand on releasing Sa’adat. This was during the segment of the show devoted to oddities. He pointed out that Sa’adat has taken “credit” for assassinating an Israeli government minister. Apparently he also organizes terrorist attacks. **Sparc** and **Arnold** – Amnesty International is a fine organization that does many good things. Still, they can make mistakes, just like the rest of us. I invite you to consider whether you agree with _this particular stand_ of AI’s. Consider it in the light of [yesterday’s bus bombing](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=25341) with 19 dead and 50 injured. in which most of the casualties are children. I don’t believe that human rights requires releasing someone who organizes this sort of attack. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/99 "2002-06-18T13:28:27Z")
> [@](#): > > don’t believe that human rights requires releasing someone who organizes this sort of attack. Adherence to human rights indeed does not require releasing a person _found guilty through due process_ of organizing heinous actions. What is it you don’t understand about “due process”, **december**? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360/100 "2002-06-18T13:41:06Z")
Amend the above to read: “_…found guilty through due process or duly charged…_” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-2002-even-more-dishonest-than-amnesty-international-2001/112360.md?page=6)