# Amnesty International Map (francais) - USA worst human rights offender. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2007, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248 "2007-06-16T13:36:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/1 "2007-06-16T13:36:44Z")
According to the link, this map was derived from information provided by Amnesty International. As it’s comes via France, perhaps not many people in the English speaking world would notice it. (Note: I couldn’t find an English version of the article). [Map and article in French](http://www.stephane.info/show.php?code=weblog&direct=1005&lg=fr) The USA top scores with six out of a possible fifteen symbols on the Amnesty International map (my occasional translations, where partly needed). • Tortures, crimes violents; (torture, violent crime) • Exécutions extrajudiciaires; (Extra judicial executions) • Peine de Mort; (Death penalty). • Exécutions; • Discrimination et violences contre les femmes; (Discrimination and violence towards women). • Détentions arbitraires. The next highest scoring countries are Israel, Angola, North Korea and Nepal with four symbols each. The other 50 countries from all continents get between one and three symbols. Zimbabwe gets one symbol against its name (abuse by security forces). I’m inclined to think many Dopers would be strong supporters of Amnesty International, but would the propagation of this kind of information be sufficient to damage or destroy the credibility of Amnesty International? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/2 "2007-06-16T13:57:16Z")
First of all, unless I misunderstand, Amnesty is _not_ saying that the US is the worst human rights offender in the world, but that the US has violated human rights in the most different ways of all countries in the world. Second of all, it seems to me that the sensible reaction to something like this is “is it true and if so what the hell do we do about it?”, not “will this damage Amnesty’s credibility”?. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/3 "2007-06-16T14:04:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Tortures, crimes violents; (torture, violent crime) > • Exécutions extrajudiciaires; (Extra judicial executions) > • Peine de Mort; (Death penalty). > • Exécutions; > • Discrimination et violences contre les femmes; (Discrimination and violence towards women). > • Détentions arbitraires. Which of those do you think is inaccurate? Interesting report! Strange to mix in human rights violations with crimes of civilians (crimes of violence toward women, violent crime). “O wad the power the Giftee gee us to see ourseles as ithers see us.” – Robert Burns ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/4 "2007-06-16T14:12:45Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] First of all, unless I misunderstand, Amnesty is _not_ saying that the US is the worst human rights offender in the world, but that the US has violated human rights in the most different ways of all countries in the world. [/QUOTE] A quick review at the fifty or so countries on the map provided indicate that many more than the USA deserved a score of six (or more). Based on that assessment, I question both the motives and integrity of the AI people who decided what countries get what symbols. If they are simply dishonest propagandists, as the distribution of symbols on this map would indicate, then they, and the organisation with which they are associated, do not deserve to be taken seriously. [QUOTE=Priceguy] Second of all, it seems to me that the sensible reaction to something like this is “is it true and if so what the hell do we do about it?”, not “will this damage Amnesty’s credibility”?. [/QUOTE] The sensible reaction to this is to examine the data. If the data can be safely judged to be untrustworthy, then the rational response would be to reject both the findings and to mistrust the organisation responsible for propagating said data. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/5 "2007-06-16T14:20:13Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Which of those do you think is inaccurate? [/QUOTE] You miss the point. AI’s deliberate omission of these symbols (and numerous others, 15 total) from many of the countries on the map is false, misleading and dishonest. Not so? ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/6 "2007-06-16T14:23:01Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Interesting report! Strange to mix in human rights violations with crimes of civilians (crimes of violence toward women, violent crime). [/QUOTE] You can argue that neglecting to protect a right is just as bad as violating it yourself. Perhaps that view is more natural from the perspective of more “positive” human rights that is more common in some European countries. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/7 "2007-06-16T14:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] A quick review at the fifty or so countries on the map provided indicate that many more than the USA deserved a score of six (or more). [/quote] You didn’t mention that. That makes your intentions much clearer. > [@](#): > > The sensible reaction to this is to examine the data. Which is, of course, what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/8 "2007-06-16T14:44:32Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] You miss the point. AI’s deliberate omission of these symbols (and numerous others, 15 total) from many of the countries on the map is false, misleading and dishonest. Not so? [/QUOTE] Could you give an itemized list of what you think has been “deliberately omitted” from each country? You need to prove your premise here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/9 "2007-06-16T14:45:45Z")
> [@](#): > > A quick review at the fifty or so countries on the map provided indicate that many more than the USA deserved a score of six (or more). Which ones and why? ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/10 "2007-06-16T15:03:10Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] You need to prove your premise here. [/QUOTE] Rubbish. I’m under no obligation to hold you by the hand and walk you through the map and article I linked to. I’ve already given one example. Zimbabwe. Scroll up to post #1. A few other examples of countries with a score of ‘1’ or ‘2’. Haiti – scores 1 symbol - Corruption and political violence. That dystopia would qualify for more than 6. Indonesia – scores 1 symbol - Abuse by security forces. Another that deserves 6 or more. Cuba – scores 2 symbols – political prisoners and arbitrary detention. This impoverished tyranny deserves at least a score of 10. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/11 "2007-06-16T15:19:34Z")
Zimbabwe one symbol? There’s not a week that goes by without British news reporting arbitrary detention of journalists/opposition politicians, torture, mass evictions (“operation clean out the trash”) etc. What did AI hope to achieve by publishing this list? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/12 "2007-06-16T15:20:46Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Rubbish. I’m under no obligation to hold you by the hand and walk you through the map and article I linked to. [/quote] I’m sorry, but yes you are. It is your contention that AI is dishonestly or deceptively omitting symobols from certain other countries on the map. You seem to expect us to accpt your assertion without support. That’s not going to happen. > [@](#): > > I’ve already given one example. Zimbabwe. Scroll up to post #1. What symbols were omitted from Zimbabwe? > [@](#): > > A few other examples of countries with a score of ‘1’ or ‘2’. > > Haiti – scores 1 symbol - Corruption and political violence. That dystopia would qualify for more than 6. I don’t think you understand the scoring system. > [@](#): > > Indonesia – scores 1 symbol - Abuse by security forces. Another that deserves 6 or more. For what? Please itemize exactly what symbols were wrongly omitted. > [@](#): > > Cuba – scores 2 symbols – political prisoners and arbitrary detention. This impoverished tyranny deserves at least a score of 10. List them. It’s obvious that you don’t understand the scoring system. In the future you should make an effort to understand the subject matter before you write an OP. ---
**Author:** ![President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/President_Johnny_Gentle)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/13 "2007-06-16T15:28:50Z")
Not to mention that the map makes clear that this is a non-exhaustive list of situations denounced by AI. The headline claiming the US to be the worst offender was written by the website owner, who seems to have no connection to AI. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/14 "2007-06-16T15:31:35Z")
Question: Was this map actually drawn up by Amnesty international or did a French website use AI as a source of some sort for a map they drew up themselves? Can any other French readers help us out? Because if AI didn’t draw this map then the entire OP is disingenuous and deceptive. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/15 "2007-06-16T15:36:05Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I’m sorry, but yes you are. It is your contention that AI is dishonestly or deceptively omitting symobols from certain other countries on the map. You seem to expect us to accpt your assertion without support. That’s not going to happen. [/quote] Oh dear God. Let’s see: [Violence against women](http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/profiles/zimbabwe_women.htm) [Restrictions on Movement](http://hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/zimbabwe0905/8.htm) AI gives us Abuse by Security Forces, so we’ll take that for granted. [Widespread corruption](http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/22-april-2005/corruption.html) [Prisoners of Conscience](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAFR460332003?open&of=ENG-2F3) - note the source of this report - AI’s own website! [Executions](http://allafrica.com/stories/200705300992.html) Do I even need to continue? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/16 "2007-06-16T15:46:25Z")
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] Oh dear God. Let’s see: [Violence against women](http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/profiles/zimbabwe_women.htm) [Restrictions on Movement](http://hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/zimbabwe0905/8.htm) AI gives us Abuse by Security Forces, so we’ll take that for granted. [Widespread corruption](http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/22-april-2005/corruption.html) [Prisoners of Conscience](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAFR460332003?open&of=ENG-2F3) - note the source of this report - AI’s own website! [Executions](http://allafrica.com/stories/200705300992.html) Do I even need to continue? [/QUOTE] Thanks for the itemization. That’s all I was asking for. It appears that this website may indeed be somewhat less than honest. However, since it apparently has nothing to do with Amnesty International it’s all a moot point, isn’t? What we may have a established is that there is an anti-American idealogue in France. Have you heard about the Lindbergh baby? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/17 "2007-06-16T15:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Was this map actually drawn up by Amnesty international or did a French website use AI as a source of some sort for a map they drew up themselves? Can any other French readers help us out? The site in question titles the chart with “the world chart of violations of human rights according to Amnesty International and Reuters”. The site then claims in the opening paragraph that Reuters produced the chart for a free newspaper. So it is Reuters who produced the biased chart, not AI. ---
**Author:** ![President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/President_Johnny_Gentle)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/18 "2007-06-16T15:50:41Z")
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] The site in question titles the chart with “the world chart of violations of human rights according to Amnesty International and Reuters”. The site then claims in the opening paragraph that Reuters produced the chart for a free newspaper. So it is Reuters who produced the biased chart, not AI. [/QUOTE] Even then, the map plainly states that it is a **non-exhaustive** list. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/19 "2007-06-16T15:51:54Z")
I doubt that Reuters produced it (as it is now) either. I have a feeling the owner of the website tampered with it. I wouldn’t mind seeing a link to the original chart. In any case, we’ve established that Amnesty International had nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248/20 "2007-06-16T15:53:09Z")
Doesn’t really affect the bias though, does it? Why choose to put all six on the USA and four on Israel, yet only put one on Zimbabwe? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/amnesty-international-map-francais-usa-worst-human-rights-offender/408248.md?page=2)